1977 Celica RA23 engine, question

[Carlightsup]

Hey

i just need some help deciding on the best engine to put in my celica.
my choices are either a 1G-GTE or a 1JZ-GTE for aprox the same price, but what i needed to know it which one would be better to put in the celica as far as performance and work involved in doing the swap and the steps i need to go through.

any knowledge u can share would be appreciated.

Cheers

[Toy77]

hi mate,

Before you get smashed by everyone..... they will tell you to use the search....

there is plenty on here about both these motors into celicas.

i have had a 1g in my celica, and am now fitting a 1j.

Both can make good power. - 1j will make big power (over 250rwkw) easier and potetially more reliably.

but the 1j is heavier and bigger to fit in the bay.

1g is a much easier fit for a basic conversion - but is also older.....

So which is better? that depends on what you want, how much you can do your self etc.

Have a look through the members rides area - lots of celicas with both motors there...

Cheers
Stew

[Carlightsup]

Hey Stew

oh ok ill remember that from now on
and thnx heaps for ur fast responce and peice of advice you'r a champion!

Cheers Carl

[Norbie]

If you like going around corners, 1G is the better choice. If you just want bulk power, 1JZ is the go.

/thread

[Smokey228]

I have read the 1jz gives you, in a ra23, an almost 60/40% weight distribution... The 1G closes to 50/50 by a significant amount...

If you recess the firewall slightly, you will get a much better distribution!

My choice was the 1G, but i stopped halfway and got a 1J... Im incredibly happy with the 1j. It is very quick

Cheers,
JHase

[Carlightsup]

Ahhhh is such a hard choice! but thnx Smokey every1s info is a huge help! 1 other thing,
what is the dealeo with regestering the Ra23 with 1 of the 2 engines in NSW?? spcialy as im only on P's

[Toy77]

heya,

registration will require an engineering certificate. there is a list of signatories from the RTA. if you tell people where you are in NSW, there will likely be someone nearby who has used an engineer in that area.

Also if an engineer has already approved one of these motors - they will already have an idea of what they want. You really should find an engineer before you start - if you talk to them now, they will tell you what they want and you can do it that way, rather than having to change small things later.

At minimum you will require a brake upgrade - if you search on here for "corona/hilux/pug brakes" you should find plenty of info on a popular and easy swap for these celicas.

you will also need a noise test. engineers will want 10mm minimum of clearance around the motor etc.....

As for being on you p's - rego has nothing to do with who owns the car. But you may not be legally allowed to drive it - Are you one of the groups of p platers that are not allowed turbo cars?

Don't forget to consider that you will also need a diff upgrade.....

cheers
Stew

[Smokey228]

If your a P Plater in NSW, i beleive your not allowed to drive a performance enhanced car nor a turbo car... ATM I think your best option is probably a mildy modified 18rg...

But toy77 anwers the other questions...

Cheers,
Jase

[o_man_ra23]

Handling- 1G
Ease of install- 1G
Bulk power- 1JZ
Availability of parts/upgrades- 1JZ

There is a stroker kit available for th 1G to give it 2.2Ltrs which also enables you to put bulk power through it (better rods, crank and forgies). The cost is comparable to a similar internal beefing pack for a 1JZ.

The 1G is also easier to get engineered, being a smaller engine, it will have less requirements in the way of brake upgrades etc, due to the fact it will not significantly increase your vehicle mass. The 1JZ will significantly increase vehicle mass, and the rona/pug/lux brake upgrade may not be sufficient (may pass engineering, but your life is worth more than an engineer's report)

Being on P's, you will virtually be un-insurable, and depending on your restrictions, as mentioned, you may not legally be allowed to drive it. You will however be allowed to register it all you want.

Personally I would go with the 1G... based on the fact that I like going round corners more than I like straight line accelleration.

Good luck, tough decisions ahead mate.

[Smokey228]

In regards to what Owen has said,

Rods 1G RA28 weighs virtually the same weight as my 1J Ra23. (1140kgs) Though mine has virtually no fuel, i still made it to the servo to fill up

And as a hilux weighs alot more than 1250kgs (celica with passenger), the hilux brakes should be more than sufficient on the celica...

In RE to cornering, i havent weighed just yet myself, but from what i've read of others 1J ra23's, they get away with a distribution weight of about 60/40%, which should leave me with reasonable handling!

Off topic, Owen, if i go down to my local weigh bridge and drive half onto it, will that give a 'close enough to' weight of the front vs rear weights? I.e. Drive upto about halfway down my drivers door?

Cheers<
Jase

EDIT: Though cost effectiveness, the 1G is a far better option as there is very little fab work that needs doing...
But considering the power and torque of a stock 1j, i think the 1j is alot more fun for a street car...

[o_man_ra23]

Jase, RA28s are a good 40-50 or more kgs heavier than RA23s before the engine conversion. So add the fuel difference etc, that makes your engine a decent amount heavier.

Your weight distribution will be spread onto your tyres based on the halfway point between the centres of the wheels, not the centre of the car. If it is weight distribution based on the halfway point between the tyres you are after (pretty sure it is) then it doesn't matter how much of the car is over the weighbridge, it will not change the amount of weight on those wheels. So, as long as the car is on a level surface, one pair of wheels is on the weighbridge and the other pair is not, you will get the reading you are after. You don't need to judge how much of your door is over the weighbridge.

A hilux stops like a truck that does 100kph at the most. Unless you are going to drive your car on streets at legal speeds 100% of the time, you can still quite easily suffer brake fade. Any thoughts of weekend racing should be complemented with decent brakes, or expect excessive stopping distances after the first couple of corners. An RA23 with a 1G should be ok with the lux/pug/rona setup, an RA28 with a 1J should get something better (around 100 or so kg difference). Remember it is momentum you need to stop, not just weight. Mass times velocity is what is being transferred into heat in your brakes, so at 200kph, a 100kg increase has twice the extra braking requirement as a 100kg increase at 100kph. So again, it comes back to... what do you want to do with the car??

[Smokey228]

Hrmmm...

Owen, this is all very true. I havent weighed my car as of yet front to rear wheel balance but i'll head down to the local weigh bridge asap!

On that note, I was also reading that a 1j Ra23, at the same weight as my car, had 640kgs over front wheels and 500 over rear wheels (1140kgs)
So if the 1j ra23 weighs same as 1g ra28, and a ra28 weighs 50kgs more than ra23. Then it makes sense a 1g ra23 has 50kgs on a 1j ra23...
Which would give it something around 590 / 500 = 55/45%. a close to perfect weight distribution!

But how much does that 5% effect handling? And if its primarily a street car, is the loss of handling there, worth the power (torque and peak power) and 'off the shelf' upgrade advantages?
In my case i said it was, as having a streetable car also means having enough torque to get around without boosting it. It also means having a car which is relatively easy to maintain, not neccessarily cheap, but if i break somehting, i dont have to visit a fabricator to have another made, or start searching wreckers...
I simply can call toyota! The biggest advantage of a almost 10 year new motor...

Though i still have to find a competent toyota employee

And on the note of hilux brakes! I never thought about brake fade so much as i havent yet taken my car to the track. But i do see how easily that will take place, and i spose the r33 brake option is probably a very good idea now... Or perhaps something slightly more affordable?

I'll have a stronger argument when i get to really drive my car! Hopefully next couple of weeks

Cheers<
Jase

[o_man_ra23]

VL brake upgrade is probably the best bang for buck. VL non turbo 6 brakes will fit under 15" rims (270mm discs), VL turbo brakes will need 16's (290mm disc). Your choice of callipers.

As for that 5%, in a street car, no you won't really notice it. Go to a track, and yes you will. Whether the extra torque of the 1J can compensate for the reduced handling by improving accelleration out of a corner or not, that is highly debateable, and I doubt if we have 2 cars comparitably similar at our disposal with a common driver to be able to really give an accurate comparison.

Of course, you can go all out and install a 3S/5S-GTE hybrid and whoop arse on all

[Smokey228]

So VL Turbo twin pot 290mm brakes, are better then the hilux 4 pot 280mm brakes?

I really wouldnt have thought that...

As the r33 calipers are rather expensive, and from what i have heard, its not a cheap upgrade, i was looking at going rx7 4 pots, as i would imagine they are slightly better, and slightly lighter? that or looking at some willwood upgrades or something...

Cheers,
Jase

EDIT: Arent VLs all single pot? Inc the turbo?

[o_man_ra23]

Rona pug lux setup uses PUGEOT 206 rotors, not HILUX ones. The Pug rotors are about 255mm.

VL upgrade uses RX7 4 pot callipers.

You need to troll the forums a bit more brew