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Thread: Biggest front brake upgrade for RA23/28?

  1. #46
    My Wife says I have Too Much Toyota o_man_ra23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biggest front brake upgrade for RA23/28?

    What suspension are you going to run??
    Cheers, Owen
    1977 RA28 with 18R-GTE
    Lancer EVO Brakes into old Celica/Corolla/Corona
    2013 86 GTS Aero. 1976 RA23 - 3S-GE Beams build to get raced in IPRA...
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  2. #47
    I even do the dishes as Domestic Engineer Rodger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biggest front brake upgrade for RA23/28?

    I cannot understand this peceived requirement to match brakes with power outputs from an engine.

    How big would a Top Fueler's brakes must be then?

    Brakes are for retardation. And as is time and time again said choose brakes that are appropriate to what the vehicle needs to do when stopping or slowing down. Street strip or race. 300+ Kw ARC Rally cars run quiet well on OEM Brakes as do many Production Car classes.

    If you need to spend money to get the biggest brakes for 17 inch rims please do not think that the reasoning is because you have a 700hp motor.

    Regards

    Rodger

  3. #48
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    Default Re: Biggest front brake upgrade for RA23/28?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodger
    I cannot understand this peceived requirement to match brakes with power outputs from an engine.

    How big would a Top Fueler's brakes must be then?

    Brakes are for retardation. And as is time and time again said choose brakes that are appropriate to what the vehicle needs to do when stopping or slowing down. Street strip or race. 300+ Kw ARC Rally cars run quiet well on OEM Brakes as do many Production Car classes.

    If you need to spend money to get the biggest brakes for 17 inch rims please do not think that the reasoning is because you have a 700hp motor.

    Regards

    Rodger
    hah, try parachutes coz i cant see any set of brakes pulling you up from 500+kph in less than 8 sec. but they do run 4 or 6 piston calipers on the rear depending on the team


    OEM brakes in a production car series yeah but i bet they dont run stock pads.

    most arc cars do run aftermarket discs and pads depending on the rules but the main reason they dont run huge discs+calipers is due to the small rim sizes they use.

    but if you look at wrc cars there is barely 4mm between there calipers and rims (even on tarmac rallies) as it depends on what surface they are running on as to how much braking force they can use. no point in having 343mm+ discs to drive on mud as they wont stop you any better than a 280mm.

    cheers
    linden
    Last edited by The Real Roadrunner; 30-11-2007 at 03:51 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by WHITCHY
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  4. #49
    TRB01J Backyard Mechanic jak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biggest front brake upgrade for RA23/28?

    at the moment im going to run one of lindens packages in the front, which is coilovers, big brakes etc, and whitline swaybar.

    then in the rear it will be a rn20 hilux rear end with lsd centre skyline brakes and coilovers.

    i have been in my cressida when it ran high 12's with stock brakes, and it is damn scary when pulling up. So, i figure that a lighter car running a few seconds less than is going to need to be able to stop. and maybe in a hurry as it will be a weekend driver. so im liking the idea of big brakes.

    Jak
    '77 RA28 Celica - Repairing Rust...
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  5. #50
    Toymods Pimp Chief Engine Builder Norbie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biggest front brake upgrade for RA23/28?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodger
    I cannot understand this peceived requirement to match brakes with power outputs from an engine.
    I can't understand how you fail to see the link?

    The purpose of an engine is to generate kinetic energy (the car moves). The purpose of the brakes is to take kinetic energy away (converts it into heat). More energy going in means more energy needs to come out. Pretty basic stuff I would have thought?

  6. #51
    I even do the dishes as Domestic Engineer Rodger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biggest front brake upgrade for RA23/28?

    I am glad Jak has put his question into context. I know not of Jak so I tried to get the thinking practice behind the question to change.

    I agree with what you are saying Norbie, sort of. Now that Jak has mentioned he wishes to run the Drag strip then of course he could not use standard brakes. A place where the aim is to run as fast as possible and slow safely.

    I still say on the street you cannot leagally do this, so with the same engine power "big" brakes are not required. On the street it is the weight of the car and the unfortunate legal speed limit that sets the requirements.

    Could argue "I have lots of power and need to stop well", so I can break the road laws on the street just to take advantage of the big brakes. Why I question the reasoning behind this discussion? I see it as not sound reasoning.

    People could look to the exotic European Marques and argue that an M5 BMW or Austin Martin DB9 have big brakes because of their power output, but consider that they can run at much higher speeds and are usually heavier on the roads in Europe and that is the context. I bet teams using these in Motorsports still need to improve their braking performance.

    I shall now concentrate on providing any help in context with what Jak intends to do with his car.

    Linden's set up sounds interesting is there a link to such a set up Linden?

    Thanks Jak

    Regards

    Rodger
    Last edited by Rodger; 02-12-2007 at 11:03 AM. Reason: any more spelling mistakes?

  7. #52
    Hopefully soon a 5S-GTE Chief Engine Builder MWP's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biggest front brake upgrade for RA23/28?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodger
    Could argue "I have lots of power and need to stop well", so I can break the road laws on the street just to take advantage of the big brakes. Why I question the reasoning behind this discussion? I see it as not sound reasoning.
    You dont have to break the road rules to stress even a decent brake package.
    A nice long downhill windy road will do the trick most times.

    Also, the RTA/DOT/reg & engineers dont care what the road rules are, if the car has a certain amount of power, or can go a certain speed, it must be safe at those limits.
    A good example of this is road cars with "V" or above spec tyres... how many of these cars would even get above 200km/hr? They have them because its a gov requirement.

  8. #53
    ---------HO00NS---------- Chief Engine Builder IN 05 NT's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biggest front brake upgrade for RA23/28?

    i cant understand why any above would not want big brakes?

    fine that standars brakes will pull up a car 9/10 times fine.... but when you really need it, will be that 10th time!

    i have a customer who CLUB RACES his fully sick lancer (got the bodykit/rims ECU, cams) goes quite well,

    but he continues to race on standard DBA rotors and BENDIX pads, every service or maintenace check up we replace his rotors due to CRACKs!....

    thats usually only 2 race meets between standard rotors!

    not only that, last meet he boiled his brakefluid and the pedal went to the floor at oran park....went shooting of into the sandtrap....

    and who says stopping power is irelavent?

  9. #54
    umop apisdn Chief Engine Builder twentyEight's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biggest front brake upgrade for RA23/28?

    Quote Originally Posted by MWP
    A nice long downhill windy road will do the trick most times.
    And you South Australian's should know all about that!

    That hill coming into Adelaide from the east is on the biggest killer of brakes in Aus!
    ([][][]II--LT--II[][][])


    Green '77 RA28 Celica - VVTi V8 Goodness...

  10. #55
    My Wife says I have Too Much Toyota o_man_ra23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biggest front brake upgrade for RA23/28?

    I still maintain people are going overkill here. Jak is trying for dragstrip, therefore the brakes will be applied for about 400m+ (usual rundown) and will need to decelerate the vehicle at about the same rate as the engine can accelerate. BUT... he only needs it to do it once before the brakes are given a chance to fully cool.

    Again, I will also ask what the rest of the suspension and steering package, as I feel this will be a top speed limiting factor due to previously mentioned suspension dynamics. All of it needs to be in context, so going from 254mm solids with a thickness of 11.5mm to some rotors with improved metal, 290mm diameter, ventilated and slotted construction and 20mm thick with a matching nice pair of callipers (Mazda RX7 Series 5/6) and some high quality pads should stop the thing quite well, and dissipate more than enough heat. The bigger you go, the more unstable the car is at high speed (unsprung weight) and the less you will require the brakes... its all physics.
    Cheers, Owen
    1977 RA28 with 18R-GTE
    Lancer EVO Brakes into old Celica/Corolla/Corona
    2013 86 GTS Aero. 1976 RA23 - 3S-GE Beams build to get raced in IPRA...
    1977 RA28 with bogan spec Ecotec V6 for dirt circuit racing

  11. #56
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic bigmat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biggest front brake upgrade for RA23/28?

    well, we will see what eventuates as i have these brakes in question and i plan on giving my car the right roggering at the track every now and then. ill let you know how it all works out. cheers.

  12. #57
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    Default Re: Biggest front brake upgrade for RA23/28?

    Quote Originally Posted by o_man_ra23
    Again, I will also ask what the rest of the suspension and steering package, as I feel this will be a top speed limiting factor due to previously mentioned suspension dynamics.
    tell that to a guy with a datsun 1200 drag car that runs 180mph with the std suspension setup (geometry wise) and im sure there would be enough laughter for the world to hear

    Quote Originally Posted by o_man_ra23
    The bigger you go, the more unstable the car is at high speed (unsprung weight) and the less you will require the brakes... its all physics.
    fuck me, i wonder why all those V8 supertaxis bother with 378mm rotors when it just makes there top speed less due to the ill handling affects of increased unsprung wheight.

    Have you ever picked up a large dia 2pc floating disc? they arent that heavy.

    Have you ever picked up a BREMBO 6pot caliper? once again they aint that heavy

    ive never heard of a good reason not to use brakes that are too big, if you can think of a decent 1 let me know.

    cheers
    linden
    Quote Originally Posted by WHITCHY
    Prefer someone around the Sydney area but will travel a few hours for a good box!

  13. #58
    TRB01J Backyard Mechanic jak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biggest front brake upgrade for RA23/28?

    the car will just have coilovers and swaybars all round with a rn20 hilux rear end with big panhard rod. and probably lindens front brake package. but thats still being decided on.

    no way it will run 180mph.

    the o0nly way i can see too bigger breaks being a problem is if you have a flimsy front end, which might stop as the rest of the car keeps going, therefore snapping in half.

    but thats pretty unlikely..

    Jak
    '77 RA28 Celica - Repairing Rust...
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  14. #59
    My Wife says I have Too Much Toyota o_man_ra23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biggest front brake upgrade for RA23/28?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Real Roadrunner
    fuck me, i wonder why all those V8 supertaxis bother with 378mm rotors when it just makes there top speed less due to the ill handling affects of increased unsprung wheight.
    Dont like arguing with learned people... but I dont think theres even a remote correlation between a V8 shoppingcart and a sub $200K road registerable vehicle. Every suspension geometry component is precisely measured and the suspension components are no heavier than they need to be, and rose joints are used wherever possible (less flex therefore less high speed wobbles than bushings), so their high speed instability will already be reduced so low that huge brakes wont be a problem and power output vs friction/aerodynamic forces will be the limiting factor. I have my doubts that Jak will be putting as much R&D and money into the suspension of his Celica as what is put into the Shoppingcarts.

    Again, I dont like to argue, but you seem to be comparing apples to oranges.
    Cheers, Owen
    1977 RA28 with 18R-GTE
    Lancer EVO Brakes into old Celica/Corolla/Corona
    2013 86 GTS Aero. 1976 RA23 - 3S-GE Beams build to get raced in IPRA...
    1977 RA28 with bogan spec Ecotec V6 for dirt circuit racing

  15. #60
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    Default Re: Biggest front brake upgrade for RA23/28?

    Depending on what discs and calipers are used, the increased weight over standard could be as small as 10% provided quality components are used.

    yes i will agree with you that more unsprung weight is a bad thing, but can quite easily be rectified by other components such as inverted dampers, lightweight rims, tyres, lighter springs, and other suspension components.

    As always, there comes a point where going over a certain size will be near pointless but at the end of the day, larger brakes are never a bad thing. Even taking into account an increase in unsprung weight, if you upgrade an engine, increase a cars weight, or even enjoy a bit of spirited driving (on a track of course), then the heat you can produce braking over a certain time will require a brake upgrade of some description to maintain a cars ability to stop when needed.

    If your going to use RDA discs and other heavy as fcuk parts then i could see your point but then theyre not really an upgrade are they.

    cheers
    linden
    Quote Originally Posted by WHITCHY
    Prefer someone around the Sydney area but will travel a few hours for a good box!

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