3sge Beams in KE25 - Flywheel and Clutch

[dave368]

Hi Guys,

Just wondering if anyone else has experienced some of the "minor teething" problems we're having with a single VVTi (inlet only) Red Top Beams motor and getting the correct flywheel and clutch combo so it will fit into a KE25 Corolla.

Here's what I found so far:
* 2mm difference in PCD of the flywheel bolts from a gen 1 crank to the beams crank
* Using a 2s bellhousing, the flywheel/clutch needed is smaller than what was fitted standard to the car (advice from Adelaide Clutch) so it will actually fit inside the bellhousing
* Ring gear has 115 teeth on the existing flywheel as is approx 294.5mm across the teeth
* Starter is a standard toyota (unknown origin) with 9 teeth

I'm working with Adelaide Clutch Service (http://www.xclutch.com.au/) and they are drawing/making up a flywheel that will suit this bellhousing and this crank bolt PCD and this will allow multiple different clutch options (mine is turbo and a dedicate race car, so an unsprung metal/ceramic is what I am going for with around 1000-1100kg of clamp). I'd love to hear from others as to what they have done with a 2s bellhousing and a late model beams motor.

Cheers,
Dave

[Crazyracer]

While the Gen 1 flywheel is the right dimensions for your project, as you've discovered the PCD of the bolts is slightly different.

BTW, the PCD of all Gen 2 onwards 3SG flywheel bolts is the same, its only the Gen 1 thats different.

I ended up getting a custom made flywheel and using the ring gear off a RA40 on it. I would imagine a 2S ring gear would be fine too. You can get these off the old flywheels with some heat and careful hammer use or buy a new one but they're $$$$.

If you're designing a flywheel you can largely use anything that had a W5X gearbox as a guide. The PCD is different (obviously) and you need to check the distance the throw out bearnig has to travel.

I think an Altezza flywheel may also suit (don't have it in front of me to measure so can't be 100% sure) but they're probably too heavy for a competition car anyway.

Couple of things to be careful of.

You need to put a spigot bearing in the end of the crankshaft. If you use a standard width one, the input shaft of the gearbox doesn't locate in the spigot bearing properly. You need to machine 5mm of the mating face of the bellhousing.

The alternative is to use a dual row bearing, or to machine the flywheel so the spigot bearing locates in that.

I you're interested I have a low inertia racing flywheel that takes a 5.5 inch racing clutch. Its small diameter so I was planning to attach a auto drive plate / ring gear to it to allow the starter to work.

PM me if this is of any interest to you.

[dave368]

Thanks Crazy racer, much appreciated. I'll PM you about the 5.5in flywheel as I have a "spare" 5.5" clutch floating around that requires a rebuild but I don't have a flywheel as yet.

[Celica RA45]

dave i have just finished a 5inch clutch and rwd flywheel if you need 1 i can get that made as well its in chrom moly let me know can ring me on 0412 045 467 glenn

[The Real Roadrunner]

i used a 3sgte os giken twin plate in mine with a 4s bell to w58 .
ring gear fits in with plenty of room but needed to remove 4mm off the engine side and 2mm off g/box side to get throw out spot on and splines in the correct pos in the plates.
i found a reduction starter that fits with a slight mod to the top hole have p/number if anyone needs it.

[rolleraction]

Dave, are you saying bye bye to the turbo and going NA?

[dave368]

I was about to say "not on your life" but I wouldn't want to restrict (pardon the pun) my future. We just used a 3sge beams motor as the basis of the new build with different pistons to lower the compression ratio down from 10.7:1. Running 18+psi of boost with this CR might just cause a problem

For anyone who is interested, the head from a Beams motor has approximately 34cc in the combustion chamber whereas the gen1 motor I have is more like 45cc. We ended up using some SR20 pistons and milling the block a lot (1.43mm) but further research has indicated that the 2JZGTE pistons might work better to get a 9.2:1 CR. It is slightly lower in the compression height, 34mm v's 35mm for the 3sgte and with a 1.5mm head gasket it should bring it out to about 9.2:1.

I know that this isn't be best thing to do due to squish etc, but when someone didn't order the custom pistons when I asked them to, you run out of time. Next time I think I would just buy the Toda pistons that actually suit a turbo conversion for a Beams motor.

Has anyone built/measured a 2jzgte piston in a 3sge block? Handy that the would come with a couple of spare pistons if you bought a normal set of 6 ;-)

Roadrunner: that part number might come in handy if you could dig it out. Thanks for the info.

[Celica RA45]

i just hope your not using the beams rods for your turbo application

[dave368]

Hell no!! Anyone want to buy a set of 40,000km old Beams rods and pistons? Going cheap

I have seen the results from a turbo motor (Neal Bate workshop) running beams rods and they banana quite well.

[Mooro]

Sorry off topic, 3sgte KE25 rolla...awesome!

Making a 3sgte from a redtop beams...kinda seem like a shame and an expensive way to get 3sgte power???

[dave368]

Not when you consider the amount that this head flows from the factory(270hp NA at 10+mm lift I believe is somewhere near the figure).

It takes a fair bit of head work to get that sort of flow from a Gen1 head (existing motor - cams, welding, porting etc which means $$$$) and even if we only went to a gen3 head, we would still need to make new manifolds either side. I guess I just took the decision to only make one set of manifolds and go straight to the best available head.

Bear in mind, this is for a race only motor with a restrictor....for a street car, I wouldn't bother, just raise the boost by 4psi (we can't because of the restrictor).

[aw11man]

Good luck with this Dave, keep us up to date

[Mooro]

Not when you consider the amount that this head flows from the factory(270hp NA at 10+mm lift I believe is somewhere near the figure).

It takes a fair bit of head work to get that sort of flow from a Gen1 head (existing motor - cams, welding, porting etc which means $$$$) and even if we only went to a gen3 head, we would still need to make new manifolds either side. I guess I just took the decision to only make one set of manifolds and go straight to the best available head.

Bear in mind, this is for a race only motor with a restrictor....for a street car, I wouldn't bother, just raise the boost by 4psi (we can't because of the restrictor).

Fair enough...I envy you.

[dave368]

Good luck with this Dave, keep us up to date

aw11man,

Thanks mate, appreciate that. It will be interesting to compare between a gen 1 3sgte motor with NA cams (with the overlap adjusted out) and the new beams motor. With the old motor we were consistently doing low 1:08's at Wakefield on A48's and I hope to break well into the sevens this coming year...if we ever get it finished

Cheers,
Dave

[charged]

The new combo seems to be going well by the Natsoft results.

Cheers
John