my masochist engine swap... 3S to RWD

[Roman]

Well I'm putting a 3S, and a FWD one at that into RWD configuration...
Clearly I must be a masochist, as it's such a hell of a job!
Well, that's what people would have you think!

There seems to be heaps of threads about how hard/impossible a 3S swap is to RWD, or into an older car in the case of the Altezza engine.
So I thought I'd post about how stupidly easy mine has been so far!

Perhaps some other people here might not end up getting put off, from hearing about how hard it is.

My plan has been to use as many factory parts as possible, rather than getting stuff custom made (which is a PITA, and can take ages) or doing things myself (which brings reliability issues to mind, hahaha)

Firstly, my weapon of choice is a 1983 AA60 Carina, complete with T series drum rear, T40 gearbox, 3AU POWERplant. haha.

The engine that I'm trying to stuff in there, is a redtop 3SGE gen 4 VVTI engine, from an SW20. Here my engine with the redtop covers, SW20 alternator, FWD extractors and intake manifold.



The first port of call, was setting up the engine for RWD configuration.
Which caused the following problems -

The redtop intake manifold.
This would want to stick through the bonnet. Would need replacing or modifying.
I found that an Altezza intake manifold bolts straight on. I found a guy with one, who was happy to swap it for my T40 gearbox.

Redtop exhaust manifold - I didnt have one, but since it faces the wrong way, it would need replacing anyway.
I bought one on trademe for 50 bucks, and it bolted straight on. Great!

Here's a pic of the engine with the manifolds on.


The next problem is the lean of the engine in factory trim... As the FWD engines are tipped over 30 degrees or so from vertical.
Obviously, tipping it upright is necessary in the RWD configuration.

The redtop sump/oil pickup/dipstick - would end up being all wrong, when the engine is tipped up.
The bottom of the oil pan/sump/etc wouldnt be level anymore, possibly causing issues.
I found out that an Altezza sump bolts straight on to the gen 4 FWD engines, so I bought one and fitted it. It wasnt cheap, but it was definitely a worthwhile purchase!
This is much better than the 1S or 2S sump, as it's full of baffles, as opposed to none.
Also, I know that my dipstick is going to be accurate, and the oil pickup is correct, and that everything will work... as it's from a factory engine.

My SW20 Alternator/bracket wouldnt fit, when the Altezza intake manifold was fitted. So I used the ST202 one that I had lying around, as it sits on the other side of the block. (high up on exhaust side)

Then the engine seemed to be more or less in order, so I had to suss out fitting it into the car.

I got an SX70 Cresta crossmember to see if it would fit, but it didnt. The engine mounts bolted straight to the engine however, except for two holes that didnt line up on one side.
I then got an ST141 Corona crossmember. This bolted directly up to the car, was exactly the same as Carina crossmember, just with different shaped mounts for the S series engine.
The sump didnt clear the front sway bar, so I took the sway bar out for now. I'll get it modified/remade to suit later.

The sump clears the crossmember and steering rack without any cutting, the intake manifold clears the brake booster and master cyl, the exhaust manifold isnt fouling on anything. Life is good!





The engine tips fowards in these pics, as the centre of gravity is foward of the engine mounts. I wouldnt know if/how I'd have any firewall clearance, until I sorted out what gearbox to use, and try to see if it would fit.
Also note that I've replaced the red rocker cover thing for a grey one from a Caldina... It suits the car better IMO, and the red one looks funny on its own without the red intake manifold to compliment it.
The bottom pic is of the sump/steering rack. I may cut a small part of the webbing out, but major modifcation as per billzillas car and a few others, will definitely not be necessary. (Reading Bills build diary, almost made me throw the towel in before I started... What a mission!)

My original plan was to run a supra 5 speed, but I came across a 6 speed Altezza box for a stellar price. (God bless trademe!)



I figured I'd try to see how/if the altezza 6 speed box would mate up to the engine.
It bolted straight up, and cleared the transmission tunnel with ease!

The shifter position is a bit further back than before, but not by a massive amount.
There's two places that you can put the shifter on the end of the gear box, I put mine on the furthest foward one of course.

I then thought, just for a laugh, that I'd see if the T series gearbox clutch slave cylinder would fit onto the Altezza box. Fits perfectly!
The hard line for the slave cylinder is on the wrong side of the car, but if I can get one from a TA63 or 4age powered AA60, which had the slave cyl on the other side, I may not have to even modify the lines at all... just plug and play!

Now the engine is sitting upright properly, and everything is still clear of everything else thankfully, haha.






Then came a potential nightmare... Wiring.
My wiring loom was from an ST202 Celica.
Since this is a FWD car, and the wiring normally faces the firewall, it was all wrong.
The loom wanted to face towards the right hand side strut tower. So I pulled all of the tape etc off the loom, and untangled it all.
Which meant that potentially, all of the wiring could be far too long/short, to poke through the firewall facing 90 degrees from normal.
I put all of the plugs on the engine, and found a hole in the fire wall to stuff all of the plugs etc though, for the ECU etc.
Poked all of the plugs through, sorted the loom into bunches and taped it up.
Four wires were too short... All of which belong to the airflow meter. Could have been worse!
The body loom of the carina will need the wires for the starter motor extended, and the plugs for the alternator replaced with ones to suit altezza starter motor, and celica alternator. I've got an SW20 loom lying around somewhere, which I should be able to cannibalise for the plugs.

Also, so far there's no problems with bonnet clearance, and I've got plenty of space.

Many people told me that a 3S swap into RWD was too hard, but I persisted anyway, and so far its been a breeze! The car obviously isnt running yet, but I think I have cleared most of the potential hurdles.

All up, I think it's going to be great fun to drive when it's finished!

I've got some other bolt on goodies planned too, but they arent of much relevance to the engine swap.

Big thanks to Celica RA45 and Kinloud (from Toyspeed) for the infinitely useful help they have provided. As well as many other people from both here and Toyspeed that have contributed useful information!
(I read the entire interchangable oddities thread one afternoon, and wrote down useful bits of info! Awesome thread)

[Major Clod]

Very nice.. Interested to know what you did in terms of engine mounts.. I seem to recall reading about a 3S swap where there was an issue on one side of the engine requiring custom mounts?

I guess the other big issue that people face converting these engines to RWD is the distributor location, which luckily you don't have to deal with!

Also by going with the Altezza box you get to avoid all the issues matching bellhousings, starter motor positions etc...

[Jorrs]

yes your very lucky and saved alot money, as you didnt have to fret over Dizzy.
looks good mate, and yes it does inspire more confidence,.well at least in myself for this kind of conversion, as i love 3s.
top stuff.

[Stefan]

Nice work, well documented. What flywheel are you using?

[Negative Boost]

Wow, that does really make it easy. Well done on sourcing parts that bolt in with no modifications too, that'll solve alot of headaches. Rep for you!

Also, is that gearbox a V160?

[Mos]

Many people told me that a 3S swap into RWD was too hard, but I persisted anyway, and so far its been a breeze!

Ah the curse of copious amount of imports Congratulations on the findings and outcome - Altezza bits definitely make the job easier.
The swap is bound to get easier as Altezzas get older and parts become more available and affordable - I'm sure everyone who said it's hard never had access to the same parts

Very nice.. Interested to know what you did in terms of engine mounts.. I seem to recall reading about a 3S swap where there was an issue on one side of the engine requiring custom mounts?

Take a closer look at the intake side engine mount - it's attached with two bolts only. The block is "clearanced" for the transfer case of the GT4s. Some celica and MR2 blocks have the second set of holes, some have bosses without holes, and some have the clearance you can see in the photo - I have no idea what the actual relationship is.

Also, is that gearbox a V160?

Should be a J160.

Mos.

[oldcorollas]

as altezza bits get older, wouldn't you just start with an Altezza front cut?
since manifold, sump and gearbox are all RWD 3SGE beams anyway


but you are making it look very easy for sure!

[WDE_BDY]

Just remember the Carina bay is heaps bigger than an AE86 like Bills, makes life a lot easier. So it may be straight forward in an AA60 but anything smaller will make life interesting.

Callum

[Roman]

Interested to know what you did in terms of engine mounts.. I seem to recall reading about a 3S swap where there was an issue on one side of the engine requiring custom mounts?

I guess the other big issue that people face converting these engines to RWD is the distributor location, which luckily you don't have to deal with!

Also by going with the Altezza box you get to avoid all the issues matching bellhousings, starter motor positions etc...

Standard 2S engine mounts... And yes, one will have to be modified, to match to the next set of holes over.

Distributorless is definitely a big bonus!

And yes, Altezza box is great. There's a company here that modifies S series bellhousings to suit 3S on a W series box, so it's not too hard going that way either.

Nice work, well documented. What flywheel are you using?

I dont have one yet, but it will be standard or aftermarket Altezza.

as altezza bits get older, wouldn't you just start with an Altezza front cut?
since manifold, sump and gearbox are all RWD 3SGE beams anyway


but you are making it look very easy for sure!

There's a very good reason.
I've had this engine sitting on an engine stand in my garage, for the last few years. It's been rebuilt, and has cost me a fair bit of money.
I was looking at it maybe six months ago, wondering what to do with it. I decided to get a RWD car to put it in, and settled on the AA60 when I found out how '3s friendly' they are.

A half cut would cost me significantly more, than the minor mods that have been needed to convert this engine to RWD.
Also, the wiring is a crap load easier... I dont have to interface with an altezza dash for this engine, I can easily get standard instruments working.
Also the altezza uses a returnless fuel line, which is a bit trickier to set up than the redtop, which has a normal fuel rail with a return on it.
A guy has a dual VVTI engine for sale here for 1500 bucks, which I was very tempted to buy! But the whole point of this project is to use my spare engine, so it wouldnt make sense to do that!

Ah the curse of copious amount of imports Congratulations on the findings and outcome - Altezza bits definitely make the job easier.
The swap is bound to get easier as Altezzas get older and parts become more available and affordable - I'm sure everyone who said it's hard never had access to the same parts

Haha yes, probably quite true.

Just remember the Carina bay is heaps bigger than an AE86 like Bills, makes life a lot easier. So it may be straight forward in an AA60 but anything smaller will make life interesting.

Callum

Oh, absolutely!
I really think that I got quite lucky with all of this, compared to the likes of some other 3S swaps that I've seen.

[mtp_69_i]

great build log, Roman! +rep

[TA-022]

yeah its the dissy and water outlets are the major pain.

but all in all with a descent aftermarket ecu to run a CAS and small custom blank for the water outlet its not that huge an exercise.

It is though fairly tedious from what ive witnessed.


Nice work ... makes me rethink my build sometimes....

[Major Clod]

Nice work ... makes me rethink my build sometimes....

Mmmm... One stage I will be happy for a 1G, then I see a picture of one of these 3S builds and see all that extra space at the front of the engine, and move towards the 3S again... Then I see another five 1G installs, and think but I AM a lazy bugger and the 1G looks much easier!

[Celica RA45]

fwd beams heads are all rwd heads any way, just buy the water outlets and you have a rwd motor

[TurboRA28]

Very nice !

[Roman]

(Okay firstly... I suppose this thread should be in the conversions section. Can a mod help me out here? thanks.)

Okay I've done a little more work in the last while, haha.

All still completely with various factory toyota parts.

My T40 slave cylinder bolts on to 6 speed!


I'm running the whole first half of the Altezza exhaust, fits perfectly






I've also got an Altezza radiator, which is sweet. it has the overflow bottle built into the surround for the fans, so I can get rid of the Carina one which will be in the way of my intake piping.






I've got an EFI fuel tank on the way, from an AA63 celica.
I've sussed out most of the wiring, the only wires that need lengthening are the ones for the airflow meter. Everything else is just right pretty much!
I just need some more parts to finish it off and get the engine running, eg. flywheel, clutch, starter motor, etc. Still a lot more work to do before the car will be on the road however.