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Thread: T series rear end diff centre change guide (warning, pics!)

  1. #1
    Blasphemist Chief Engine Builder Bananaman's Avatar
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    Default T series rear end diff centre change guide (warning, pics!)

    Gday lads,

    Thought i'd might as well post this up - i did this ages ago, it was the first time i'd ever had anything to do with a diff, and i figure it might be useful for someone in a position similar to I was at the time. Feel free to make any comments or additions, you'll probably find that i may not have the right names for various things, but oh well.

    The rear end in question is a T series from a ta22, which is fitted to my 74 ke20.

    Thanks also to the following people for supplying some extra info which has been added : Hen, The Witzl (extra pics from him as well), Big T, Takai,


    Tools and parts

    You will require the following:
    • Jack
    • 2x Axle stands
    • Socket Set (12mm and 14mm in my case, but this will vary) + extension
    • 24mm socket, can probably get away with a large shifter but be careful
    • Few ring spanners (12mm in my case, once again may vary
    • Something to catch your diff oil in – I used a cut down juice bottle
    • Replacement diff oil of the correct grade
    • Rag
    • Possibly a hammer or mallet

    Directions

    First up, loosen your rear wheels slightly. Then jack up the car, and place the axle stands under the rear axle housing. Lower the vehicle on to the stands. Witzl recommends jacking from the diff housing and use the chassis stands on the chassis rails - this way the diff housing drops down allowing easier access to the top bolts and filler plug. Either way will work.



    Remove the wheels, and in my case, your drums (if you have discs, different story). Removing the drums i found to be the most painful part of the whole process - you can maybe use the threaded section to push it off, but mine was just too tight. I ended up levering with a screwdriver off the backing plate, which isn't particularly friendly.

    Added tips for removing the drum:
    There is a trick to removing the drums without resorting to hammers, crowbars or excessive love. Most of the time you should be able to remove the drum by hand, but sometimes you need to do the following:
    - There is two threaded holes on the face of your brake drum, a regulation Toyota bolt with 12mm head (8mm diam shaft) will fit into these threads.
    - Find a couple of long (at least 50mm) bolts that fit into these threads. NB: some Inox and cleaning of the thread on the drum will no doubt be required - they're no doubt full of dust/dirt.
    - Pull the drum off as far as you can by hand. Rotating the drum a little when it gets stuck will usually allow you to pull it off a bit more.
    - When the drum will pull off no further, bolt in your two long bolts in those threads, and tighten them up. The bolts will push hard up against the axle face plate and thus push the drum out, and eventually the drum will come free!

    And if you have discs rather than drums:

    - Undo the handbrake cables by pulling out the locking pin with needle nose pliers.
    - Undo the handbrake bracket.
    - Disconnect the brake line (the hard lines) Make sure you use the proper spanner!! I munted a fitting pretty good before i went and bought a set for $10 from supercheap. Looks like a ring spanner but with a split in the top.
    - Undo lower brake caliper bolt (it's a long 12mm bolt.)
    - Swing the caliper upwards to clear the disk.
    - Pull the caliper gently off. Try not to ruin the rubber boot. (i got a little stuck here thinking it was bolted in but it just slides right off)
    - Undo 2 bolts on the backing plate and the rest of the brakes come off.
    - Remove the disk (its a floating disk so no other bolts)

    The Axles

    With the drum off, you should see on the hub piece that has your wheel studs that there are two holes, that allow you access to the bolts behind that hold on the axles. Spin the hub to suitable positions to undo the bolts, using the socket with an extension to loosen and remove the nuts.

    Here you can see the axle mounting face with the holes aligned to undo two of the bolts holding the axle into the housing:



    When all 4 nuts are removed, refit the wheel, and screw on two wheel nuts opposite to each other, only a few turns. Firmly grab your wheel, and pull outwards, banging against the wheel nuts, effectively doing the same action as a slide hammer would (ignore these instructions if you actually have a slide hammer). You can also bolt on the drum backwards and hammer it if that tickles your fancy:



    Axle partly removed:



    I only slid the axles out say 10-20cm, enough for the axles to just pop out. (EDIT: Apparently hanging the axles just 20cm out of the housing is bad because they rest on and can crush the axle oil seal. I've heard you are best off removing the entire axle and standing it on the sheel studs (using the brake drum as a base makes it more stable). That said, i had no problems leaving them resting. Remove the wheels again.

    The Centre

    Drain your diff oil, there should be a drain plug on the bottom of the centre housing. Now undo the 4 bolts on the diff end of your tailshaft. My tailshaft needed some gentle persuasion with a hammer to break the surface stuck-ness between the tailshaft and diff after the bolts were removed. Push the tailshaft toward the front of the car and off the diff, rest it on the ground without removing it from the gearbox (if you want to remove it, change your gearbox oil first!).

    Both these bolts and the carrier housing ones should be 12mm:


    Undo the carrier housing bolts, which are the ones that actually hold your centre in. Remove the centre, taking care not to damage yourself or the diff centre - its a bit of a heavy bastard, be careful



    There you have it, your diff centre is out. You should replace the carrier housing gasket, or redo it with some suitable gasket goo, such as Silastic/silicon. I used Silastic, and the seal that was used previously was Silastic also, and did not leak.

    Re-Fitment

    Refit your diff centre, and tailshaft – installation is the reverse of removal. Some sealant should perhaps be used on the plate that holds on the axles, and also on the back of your brake backing plate if you are keen.

    Pop your axles back in, this may require some maneuvering, be patient. Put your axle bolts back in, and refit the wheels if you like. Replace the diff drain plug, and replenish the centre with oil, filling to either the amount specified in the manual, or in most cases, up to the level of the filler hole – which is another bolt, usually on the rear of the housing.

    Extra Tips

    -Don’t forget to tighten your wheel nuts when the car is back on the ground. Having a wheel fall off at speed isn’t fun (i speak from experience, albeit not from my own lack of wheel tightening)

    -This guide also applies to changing your brake setup/backing plate. I was changing my rear left brake setup due to the damage mentioned above, as well as my diff centre – the only extra work required is the complete removal of the axle, removal of brake line and handbrake from the drum, and off she comes. Replace and seal accordingly.

    This is what it looks like with everything removed:



    -I had to change the tailshaft flange on mine, because they were different (still don't know why). This was a real prick. Don't do it unless you have alot of patience and/or an oxy to heat it up with.

    Pics

    Aside from whats in the thread, there are a few extras at full res here:

    http://members.datafast.net.au/~hanl...ng/diff_guide/

    Locked centre vs. open centre:


    Anyway, there you have it. Any questions i'm sure myself or someone else will try to help
    Last edited by Bananaman; 04-01-2006 at 07:29 PM.
    KE20 CA18DET / RN25 12R / IS200 1G / NA MX5 B6

  2. #2
    Chookhouse Chooning Automotive Encyclopaedia Hen's Avatar
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    Default Re: T series rear end diff centre change guide (warning, pics!)

    Good guide. A couple of things I'd add:

    - I think its best to drop the diff oil first. Gives it plenty of time to drain and means you don't pull an axle out and then get showered in oil.
    - Once you have the wheels off, you need to remove the brake drums (or discs and calipers for the lucky few) before you can remove the 4 bolts holding the axle in.
    - Those 4 bolts can be a total prick to get out if you drop them into the brakes, so be careful with them, especially when re-installing them.
    - Apparently hanging the axles just 20cm out of the housing is bad because they rest on and can crush the axle oil seal. I've heard you are best off removing the entire axle and standing it on the sheel studs (using the brake drum as a base makes it more stable)

    Takes a couple of hours first time round, but with practice and a friend to help you can do this in an hour from opening the shed to washing your hands.

    Hen

  3. #3
    Blasphemist Chief Engine Builder Bananaman's Avatar
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    Default Re: T series rear end diff centre change guide (warning, pics!)

    I'd agree with you regarding the diff oil, and i was unaware of any ramifications of leaving the axles in - mine doesnt seem to leak in any case, if that helps

    I indeed did the drop the bolt into the brakes trick at least once or twice

    Forget to mention removing the drum itself it seems. I'll add that, thanks. Woops Its probably the most painful part of the job, too... Will edit it as more suggestions flow through.

    If someone is familiar with what exactly is done if it was a disc brake rear end then it would be great if someone could write something up - i'm not familiar with it, and nor do i have any pictures.
    KE20 CA18DET / RN25 12R / IS200 1G / NA MX5 B6

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    Chookhouse Chooning Automotive Encyclopaedia Hen's Avatar
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    Default Re: T series rear end diff centre change guide (warning, pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bananaman
    Forget to mention removing the drum itself it seems. I'll add that, thanks. Woops Its probably the most painful part of the job, too...
    You did release the handbrake didn't you??... just stirring.

    As for the oil seals, I've never run into problems myself either. I heard it from a friend who is a mechanic and it sounds reasonable. Maybe only if you plan on changing your diff centre far too often (like me).

    Hen

  5. #5
    Blasphemist Chief Engine Builder Bananaman's Avatar
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    Default Re: T series rear end diff centre change guide (warning, pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hen
    You did release the handbrake didn't you??... just stirring.Hen
    Handbrake? Whats a handbrake? Jokes!

    Taking a drum off has to be one of my pet hates as far as the brakes are concerned, it always ends up taking me ages... Any suggestions on an easy way of doing it?

    I've added your info regarding the axles, and the missing drum removal. I've also put up the top there a list people who contribute
    KE20 CA18DET / RN25 12R / IS200 1G / NA MX5 B6

  6. #6
    MR 18RG Chief Engine Builder The Witzl's Avatar
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    Default Re: T series rear end diff centre change guide (warning, pics!)

    You have forgotten a couple of essentials....


    # You will also need a 24mm socket to undo to the diff oil drain and fill plugs

    # You should ALWAYS undo the filler plug before draining the oil - you dont want to drain the oil only to find out that you cant undo the filler plug and refill the diff with oil!!

    # There is a trick to removing the drums without resorting to hammers, crowbars or excessive love. Most of the time you should be able to remove the drum by hand, but sometimes you need to do the following:
    - There is two threaded holes on the face of your brake drum, a regulation Toyota bolt with 12mm head (8mm diam shaft) will fit into these threads.
    - Find a couple of long (at least 50mm) bolts that fit into these threads. NB: some Inox and cleaning of the thread on the drum will no doubt be required - they're no doubt full of dust/dirt.
    - Pull the drum off as far as you can by hand. Rotating the drum a little when it gets stuck will usually allow you to pull it off a bit more.
    - When the drum will pull off no further, bolt in your two long bolts in those threads, and tighten them up. The bolts will push hard up against the axle face plate and thus push the drum out, and eventually the drum will come free!
    ...... butt scratcher?!


  7. #7
    Chookhouse Chooning Automotive Encyclopaedia Hen's Avatar
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    Default Re: T series rear end diff centre change guide (warning, pics!)

    Witzl speaks the truth, especially about undoing the fill plug first.

    However be VERY careful about using the threaded holes in the drum. The drums are pretty soft metal and it is very easy to kill the threads.

    Hen

  8. #8
    Blasphemist Chief Engine Builder Bananaman's Avatar
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    Default Re: T series rear end diff centre change guide (warning, pics!)

    Yes, i made a point of undoing the filler plug when i did it too - i'll add that, and your tips on the drums.

    I killed the thread on mine just recently, was just too tight. An almighty bang later, the thread was stuck to the bolt i was using.
    KE20 CA18DET / RN25 12R / IS200 1G / NA MX5 B6

  9. #9
    MR 18RG Chief Engine Builder The Witzl's Avatar
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    Default Re: T series rear end diff centre change guide (warning, pics!)

    you could also use something like a harmonic balancer puller to pull the drum off.....

    usually my trick of turning a little and pulling by hand works fine.
    ...... butt scratcher?!


  10. #10
    Blasphemist Chief Engine Builder Bananaman's Avatar
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    Default Re: T series rear end diff centre change guide (warning, pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Witzl
    you could also use something like a harmonic balancer puller to pull the drum off.....

    usually my trick of turning a little and pulling by hand works fine.
    I must be good luck then - i always try by hand first, and seem to always fail miserably until i've got it off a little with some other forms of gentle persuasion..

    I've slightly neatened up the format, so its a bit friendlier on the eyes. I'll have a proper look at it later, i'm at work currently - about to go home.
    KE20 CA18DET / RN25 12R / IS200 1G / NA MX5 B6

  11. #11
    MR 18RG Chief Engine Builder The Witzl's Avatar
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    Default Re: T series rear end diff centre change guide (warning, pics!)

    I've got a few pics that will work very well with your guide (I was going to do a guide myself, but just get too busy all the time!

    i'll upload them tonight and post them in this thread....
    ...... butt scratcher?!


  12. #12
    Blasphemist Chief Engine Builder Bananaman's Avatar
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    Default Re: T series rear end diff centre change guide (warning, pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Witzl
    I've got a few pics that will work very well with your guide (I was going to do a guide myself, but just get too busy all the time!

    i'll upload them tonight and post them in this thread....
    Sounds good, more the merrier. The pics i took while i was doing it i didn't really take with the intention of making a guide, theres probably *just* enough. I should probably make thumbnails so that the pictures can actually be put within the article at the relevant points, what you think? Are your pics of a drum rear end or disc?

    What are the differences between this and a sprinter rear end as far as changing the centre goes, are there any? Beyond the fact some are disc brake rear ends of course.
    KE20 CA18DET / RN25 12R / IS200 1G / NA MX5 B6

  13. #13
    MR 18RG Chief Engine Builder The Witzl's Avatar
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    Default Re: T series rear end diff centre change guide (warning, pics!)

    a couple of pics...... this is how i would recommend doing a centre swap, i've done a fair few now so i'm got a little experience in what makes it painful.....


    When jacking up the car, jack from the diff housing and use the chassis stands on the chassis rails - this way the diff housing drops down allowing easier access to the top bolts and filler plug.




    Here you can see the axle mounting face with the holes aligned to undo two of the bolts holding the axle into the housing....




    Some use a tyre, but for really stubbornly stuck axles, i use a spare drum reversed and bash it with a hammer.....




    Dont forget to unbolt the tailshaft from the yoke - four bolts and nuts, 12mm




    and unbolt all the nuts holding the centre on, also 12mm....

    ...... butt scratcher?!


  14. #14
    Toymods Club Member Backyard Mechanic Big T's Avatar
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    Default Re: T series rear end diff centre change guide (warning, pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bananaman
    If someone is familiar with what exactly is done if it was a disc brake rear end then it would be great if someone could write something up - i'm not familiar with it, and nor do i have any pictures.
    I did this just the other week on my T-series. It's fairly simple. (sorry didnt take pics) Assuming the diff oil's draining...

    1. Undo the handbrake cables by pulling out the locking pin with needle nose pliers.
    2. Undo the handbrake bracket.
    3. Disconnect the brake line (the hard lines) Make sure you use the proper spanner!! I munted a fitting pretty good before i went and bought a set for $10 from supercheap. Looks like a ring spanner but with a split in the top.
    4. Undo lower brake caliper bolt (it's a long 12mm bolt.)
    5. Swing the caliper upwards to clear the disk.
    6. Pull the caliper gently off. Try not to ruin the rubber boot. (i got a little stuck here thinking it was bolted in but it just slides right off)
    7. Undo 2 bolts on the backing plate and the rest of the brakes come off.
    8. Remove the disk (its a floating disk so no other bolts)

    The rest is pretty much the same. You don't need to undo the rubber brake lines provided you're taking the backing plate off as well. I did it anyway thinking it had to be done

    I would also recommend using a shitload of INOX before unbolting anything. I did and no bolt gave me any hassles.

    Eddie.
    4agte finally completed. 234rwkw @ 8125rpm. Tis fun

  15. #15
    Gary Motorsport Inc. Too Much Toyota takai's Avatar
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    Default Re: T series rear end diff centre change guide (warning, pics!)

    Yeah i can update this when i disassemble my JDM diff.
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