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Thread: 1985 4K-J Recommended Oil?

  1. #31
    Toymods Board Member Chief Engine Builder Hiro's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1985 4K-J Recommended Oil?

    Quote Originally Posted by rebuilder86 View Post
    hiro give me an honest answer here.
    did u just go and add this to ur previous post:
    specifically the part in brackets.
    .............
    You can have a perfectly normal functioning coolant system and oil temperatures can continue to rise past that due to the load on the engine (which will be higher in hotter temperatures because the engine is ingesting hotter air and working harder to produce the same power)
    No I did not. If I did, there would be an "edited by" tag on the bottom of the post as you can see on some of the other posts in this thread (mine included, because I often re-visit a post in the seconds/minutes after posting it to expand on points, correct typos etc to avoid multiple posts)

    (I just edited this post to add in this section, you will see a "Last Edit by" tag at the bottom for this reason) I don't go back and edit posts made almost a week ago, especially when people have responded in the meantime, unless I am correcting a mistake like listing an incorrect part number and if I do I will add a reason in for clarity (and often another post at the end of the thread so people will know that something has changed and why).
    Last edited by Hiro; 11-10-2017 at 04:06 PM. Reason: Added paragraph
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  2. #32
    Toymods Board Member Chief Engine Builder Hiro's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1985 4K-J Recommended Oil?

    Quote Originally Posted by rebuilder86 View Post
    unless u are a ricebox driver and have an external oil cooler... then everything changes.
    otherwise, the biggest heat generator for oil is the cylinder head, and its temp is governed by.......
    u guessed it, coolant tempt
    What does being a ricebox owner have to do with having an external oil cooler? My Corolla has an external oil cooler fitted from factory, and it was the epitome of granny spec on the dealership floor. Note that this was something added to Australian models due to the hotter environment, Japanese models did not feature this oil cooler. Yes there is a style going around of having an oil cooler mounted on the front of the bumper (often for decoration only) but many a car has an oil cooler of some kind fitted from factory.
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  3. #33
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    Default Re: 1985 4K-J Recommended Oil?

    right i completely missed that and therfor i missed your argument.
    it appears u are not on the same page as the others here.
    as the others have been trying to slam home the engine getting hotter because the cooling system isnt as efficient.

    so your suggestion is the most sensible ive ever heard of for manufacturers having differing viscosity grades in their user manuals.

    however, less dense air simply means less power. how does the engine work harder per revolution to overcome this, and where would that have an impact on oil temp?

    the engine would have to turn over more times per period of time, to perform the same, but this is so marginal...
    In a truck, a con rod bearing ranges from about 90 celcius at idle to 134 celcius at sustained max power.
    we would be looking at a single degree of temp difference maximum. this is no reason to use a thicker oil.
    thicker oils are for bigger clearances.

  4. #34
    Toymods Board Member Chief Engine Builder Hiro's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1985 4K-J Recommended Oil?

    Quote Originally Posted by rebuilder86 View Post
    however, less dense air simply means less power. how does the engine work harder per revolution to overcome this, and where would that have an impact on oil temp?
    Because the engine is making less power, it will therefore be worked harder in order to provide the same end result (being speed, acceleration, torque, whatever). Same goes for higher altitude (thinner air). If the car needs 50HP to push it along at 100km/h and suddenly you're only making 45HP due to high intake temps, then you'll need to use more throttle or higher revs in order to get the missing 5HP back.
    Last edited by Hiro; 11-10-2017 at 04:29 PM. Reason: HP comparison added
    AE102 - Charlene the Old Faithful, Reborn
    JZZ30 - Lexi the Spacecruiser, 1JZGTE>>3SGE. 200rwkw, hunting Skylines and n00bs in SS Commodores
    ST162 - Charlie the non-ghey Celica, 3SGE>>4AGE. GOOOOOOOONE
    AE82 - Rosie the Bitsa from Hell, 70.8kw atw. Has been converted into garage space and money at last
    KE55 - Billie the Beast, sadly missed

  5. #35
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    Default Re: 1985 4K-J Recommended Oil?

    well pardon me if this is a stupid queation, getting into grey area for me now, but...
    isnt adding more throttle to get back to 50 hp just using more fuel to make the same power, the bearings are going to experience the same friction. its just the chemistry in the combustion chamber is different.
    in fact its richer combustion, which means lower combustion temps, so i would say its the opposite of what you are hypothesizing....

  6. #36
    Toymods Board Member Chief Engine Builder Hiro's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1985 4K-J Recommended Oil?

    Quote Originally Posted by rebuilder86 View Post
    well pardon me if this is a stupid queation, getting into grey area for me now, but...
    isnt adding more throttle to get back to 50 hp just using more fuel to make the same power, the bearings are going to experience the same friction. its just the chemistry in the combustion chamber is different.
    in fact its richer combustion, which means lower combustion temps, so i would say its the opposite of what you are hypothesizing....
    More fuel doesn't necessarily mean richer consumption if it is matching a greater throttle opening, as there is also more air going in (also more fuel means more bang, more bang means more heat). You're also looking at combustion efficiency (how much of the fuel is being burnt and how much of that energy is actually being transmitted to the piston rather being wasted, often as heat), BMEP/BSFC, pumping losses etc.
    AE102 - Charlene the Old Faithful, Reborn
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    ST162 - Charlie the non-ghey Celica, 3SGE>>4AGE. GOOOOOOOONE
    AE82 - Rosie the Bitsa from Hell, 70.8kw atw. Has been converted into garage space and money at last
    KE55 - Billie the Beast, sadly missed

  7. #37
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic jondee86's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1985 4K-J Recommended Oil?

    Let's consider for a moment why Toyota fits an oil cooler to cars destined for certain markets, and not to others. The venerable Corolla was equipped with an oil cooler for "hot" countries such as Saudi, Australia and the USA. The exact same car destined for "cool" climates like the UK, Japan and NZ, did not get an oil cooler. The FSM also recommends using 50wt oil in "hot" climates and 30wt oil in "cool/cold" climates.

    I would suggest that this shows the factory recognises that ambient temperatures have an effect on engine oil temperature.

    Cheers... jondee86 (I fkn love a good arg... erm... debate

  8. #38
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota oldcorollas's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1985 4K-J Recommended Oil?

    Quote Originally Posted by rebuilder86 View Post
    if i keep on getting told i am incorrect by people who are so far missinformed, then maybe this isnt the forum for me.
    how old are all of you?
    dont they teach mechanical workshop in school? or physics?
    I am also interested in your age and experience (although fleetingly )

    call me Dr...

    Quote Originally Posted by rebuilder86 View Post
    to check my sanity, i have thoroughly googled the topic.
    and yes, I understand the physics of heat flow, and quite a lot more, both theoretical and practical.... shall we get into equations for heat transfer?.. no.. let's not
    basically it is all about the balance of heat transfer rates.
    vehicles are not as perfectly designed as you imagine, although they are getting better with headroom in the cooling system for Aussie summers...

    can you remember 30 years ago when there would be heaps of commodores and falcons overheated by the side of the road in summer?
    "I'm a Teaspoon, not a mechanic"
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  9. #39
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota oldcorollas's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1985 4K-J Recommended Oil?

    the factory recommendation is all about:
    Viscosity during warm-up.. needs to be thin enough when cold to do it'S job.
    Viscosity if the engine gets too hot.

    for middling temperatures, it is not so critical, and mainly about clearances at "normal" running temps, ie ~85-105deg
    the actual viscosity for your engine at a certain temp is governed by the engines clearances.. and makes a left or right shift on the graphs below.

    SAE has the following general chart for viscosity... remember the grades you are thinking about are.. SAE grades.... (and yes this is a genral guide, not for specific engines clearances)
    note how much overlap there is between -15 and +35....
    most cooling systems are not designed for 40-45.. and certainly have difficulty coping if you are fanging it on a 40+deg day



    Kawasaki have a much more simplified chart that is easy to understand for most...



    from Elf (remember they had an F1 car? )


    plus there are plenty of charts and tables with both kinematic viscosity vs temp, and high shear rate viscosity, for many oils from different manufacturers.. (plus cranking viscosity, pumping viscosity, etc etc), all of which test the properties in a different way for different loading situations experienced through an engine (or gearbox)
    "I'm a Teaspoon, not a mechanic"
    "There is hardly anything in the world that a man can not make a little worse and sell a little cheaper" - John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

    AU$TRALIA... come and stay and PAY and PAY!!! The moral high horse of the world!

  10. #40
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    Default Re: 1985 4K-J Recommended Oil?

    jondee you quoted single grade oils. thats a different kettle of fish. we use multigrade these days.

    fuck here come the quotes

    "can you remember 30 years ago when there would be heaps of commodores and falcons overheated by the side of the road in summer?"
    thats because they were designes with an unsuitable cooling system, not because it was hot outside.

    oldcorollas, thankyou, yes the only time environment affects viscosity in any measurable/noticeable way is at cold start.

    "I am also interested in your age and experience"

    i was just checking i wasnt arguin with a pack of teenagers with their first cars.
    im 30. ive been rebuilding engines since i was 16. spent time in and out of the industry. school was no good for me.
    im still learning things and will allways learn.

    "More fuel doesn't necessarily mean richer consumption if it is matching a greater throttle opening, as there is also more air going in"

    well, yes it does, we r talking about air density due to temp. less dense air means richer mixture.

    i fly piston helicopters. when i climb up into less dense air, i have to lean the mixture, even tho my operators ops manual forbids it. if i dont lean it, it goes too rich. same with temp density.

    "also more fuel means more bang, more bang means more heat"
    but there isnt more bang, there is less power, and more excess fuel and or a colder combustion chamber. however this is more noticeable in exhaust gas temp.

    in short, why are we arguing about combustion efficiencies when the topic i bumbsteered this whole thread to, was oil temperature.

  11. #41
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota oldcorollas's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1985 4K-J Recommended Oil?

    LOL problem seems to be you don't seem to understand the temperature links between air/oil/coolant, and rate of heat rejection... or the differences between synthetic and mineral oils... and..anyway, keep going
    "I'm a Teaspoon, not a mechanic"
    "There is hardly anything in the world that a man can not make a little worse and sell a little cheaper" - John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

    AU$TRALIA... come and stay and PAY and PAY!!! The moral high horse of the world!

  12. #42
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic jondee86's Avatar
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    Arrow Re: 1985 4K-J Recommended Oil?

    Quote Originally Posted by rebuilder86 View Post
    jondee you quoted single grade oils. thats a different kettle of fish. we use multigrade these days.
    FSM actually called up 20W-50 for hot and 5W-30 for cold climates, I was just saving bandwidth. But my omission of the full designation does not negate the fact that the factory made provision for oil cooling on vehicles destined for countries with a "hot" climate.

    So yeah... on to heat transfer. The heat rejected by a radiator is primarily affected by deltaT... the temperature difference between the fluid flowing inside the radiator core and the air flowing through the fins on the outside of the radiator core. If the air temperature rises, deltaT becomes less and the ability to reject heat is reduced.

    If other factors (vehicle speed, engine load etc) remain constant, the temperature of the coolant inside the radiator must rise until deltaT increases and the heat generated vs heat rejected balance is restored.

    A substantial portion of the heat generated in the bearings and transferred to the oil is ultimately transferred to the engine coolant by conduction. This transfer is also affected by deltaT between the oil and the coolant. If the temperature of the coolant rises (closer to the oil temperature), deltaT is reduced and the temperature of the oil will rise until deltaT is restored.

    So it is not difficult to see that there is a link between ambient conditions and oil temperature, even though it is not a simple air temp vs oil temp relationship.

    Cheers... jondee86

  13. #43
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    Default Re: 1985 4K-J Recommended Oil?

    "So yeah... on to heat transfer. The heat rejected by a radiator is primarily affected by deltaT... the temperature difference between the fluid flowing inside the radiator core and the air flowing through the fins on the outside of the radiator core"

    how many times do i have to remind you of the thermostat.
    u seem to keep ignoring it.
    when the radiator is unable to cool any more because of air temp, the coolant will heat up. but the thetmostat will open and flow more to keep it cool.

    "FSM actually called up 20W-50 for hot and 5W-30 "
    thats because there is no such thing as a 5w 50. when its cold the oil needs to be thin on startup. once it has all heated up it will reach the same temp as it would in summer.

    perhaps the difference between what im saying and what manufacturers are saying, is our definition of hot and cold

    you would only need thinner oil for a "substantially" colder environment. yiu would have to move thwards the poles to need to chance from 5w oil in a corolla.

    "LOL problem seems to be you don't seem to understand the temperature links between air/oil/coolant, and rate of heat rejection..."
    well thats a very childish comment.
    you make no effort to back up any of your facts, but just say LOL.
    laughing at someone in a debate or conversation does nothing but cause anger.

    now you are laughing at me for making a sensible comment but you are unable to open your mind and listen to someone elses points. that will lead to a life of closed mindedness and no learning.

    how about instead of laughing at me, you attempt to enlighten me where i am wrong about heat transfer. where exactly. give me specifics

  14. #44
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic jondee86's Avatar
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    Question Re: 1985 4K-J Recommended Oil?

    Quote Originally Posted by rebuilder86 View Post
    how many times do i have to remind you of the thermostat.
    u seem to keep ignoring it.
    Sorry... I just assumed that at this level of debate you would have understood that I was referring to a situation where the thermostat was already maxed out i.e. that the engine was overheating and the thermostat no longer had any control authority. If we are going to limit the discussion to engines operating at normal temperatures with the thermostat in full control of the coolant temperature, then I fail to see the point of even having this discussion ??

    As to using different grades of oil according to climatic conditions, apart from startup I would guess that there is also some benefit during short trips where the engine does not get a chance to reach normal operating temperature. It is not something that has much bearing on engines in an overheated condition, so not really relevant to a discussion on heat transfer.

    What is relevant is the practice of fitting oil coolers to high performance vehicles. IIRC once oil temperatures start to climb above 120degC the oil starts to degrade and viscosity drops to the detriment of its ability to lubricate properly. Fitting a separate oil cooler removes some cooling load from the engine cooling system and helps keep the oil at an optimum temperature (if a thermostat is fitted in the oil cooler pipework).

    I would not be surprised if these days manufacturers actually fitted different capacity radiators to their vehicles depending on the intended market and what engine/accessories are fitted. Just as they will change the engine tune to suit locally available fuel.

    Cheers... jondee86

  15. #45
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    Default Re: 1985 4K-J Recommended Oil?

    fair comment jondee, however this entire debate started from my question; and i quote myself:

    "im also not yet convinced that climate affects the running viscosity (at operating temp) of any oil. "

    "running viscosity,"
    perhaps i should have clarified what i meant by that.
    let me now expand that that to, "measurable noticeable or meaningful viscosity at operating temp."

    if you fail to see the point of the discussion, let me help.
    i questioned the sanity in recommending a different oil for winter and summer. specifically in an old corolla.

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