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Thread: Ignition Setup pros - advice on 4age haltech install

  1. #1
    Bodgepro Mechanic Grease Monkey Ghetto-Spec .:bayka:.'s Avatar
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    Unhappy Ignition Setup pros - advice on 4age haltech install

    Hi all

    Once again I must call on the credible advice from the toymods community. Before I continue, let me first say that in true bodgepro style I am on a shoe string budget here ppl and this is my first DIY aftermarket ECU install. The car cost me $500 and I've spent about $1500 on extras including rims, coilover suspension, 4age and an EMS system that I found fossilised in some sedimentary rock formations whilst on a morning jog one day.

    The Setup
    KE70
    JDM 4age
    Haltech E6A (old school runs on dos only. Functional)
    Everything is wired in and sensor output testing ok on laptop interface.
    The engine cranks, and I have fuel injection and spark.

    The Problem
    The final hurdle to start the car is ignition timing and its relation to my trigger interface. This is where things get a little complicated.

    First a little on the trigger interface itself - the 4age distributor produces a trigger signal (for engine rpm and crank position sensing) using a magnetic reluctor sensor mounted in the distributor. The output signal from this type of sensor is not square wave and changes amplitude with rpm. Unfortunately the trusty old Haltech E6A can't interpret this signal. I think later model haltechs can. I have heard of various people using a special electronic device that can convert the output signal to square wave before it is fed to the ECU, with mixed success. This part is not really sold anymore and regardless it has not always proven to work.

    This leaves a custom hall effect sensor or a variable reluctance sensor as suitable alternatives to the factory trigger interface. I decided to go the hall effect sensor route. I have custom engineered an aluminium wheel and mounted recessed magnets into it. I bought a hall effect sensor from jaycar for $30 or something so the whole setup has cost me <$70. Remember ppl, this is also an educational experience. The hall effect setup is mounted within the distributor, effectively replacing the preexisting reluctor sensor. As it is based on cam revolutions and spins at half the speed of the crank, it is has 4 magnets at 90 degrees apart (one for each spark event). It has a 5th magnet in reverse magnetic polarity to act as a 'home' trigger for use only in a direct fire ignition application. When cranking, the haltech registers a smooth consistent 120rpm so i am confident that everything is working properly and that the 5th 'home' trigger magnet is not interfering with the rpm calculation which should be based on the other 4 magnets only.

    Fuck that was a lot of background. Sorry. Ok so whats the problem. There are three problems in my life right now. Women, money and trigger sensors. I have realised two things:

    1. Dizzy setup problem. The positions of magnets in the hall effect wheel did not take into consideration the orientation of the distributor part that actually distributes the spark. Both of these units turn on the same axis and cannot be adjusted in relation to each other so I think this means i'm fucked for a distributor setup as I cannot ensure that the correct plug actually receives a spark when the spark is generated.

    2. Direct fire setup problem. If I want to go direct fire I need a home trigger. The cheapy hall effect sensor I have is not dual channel so it can only read magnets in one orientation. Currently it is reading the 4 magnets oriented in the same direction, and the 5th magnet for 'home' is not being read. If I purchase an s3 or s4 HALTECH
    hall effect sensor for $150 I can solve this problem as these are dual channel and built for this purpose.

    I am so close to getting this car started. Before I go and buy a dual channel hall effect sensor and reengineer the mounting, can anyone comment on how i might be able to get the dizzy setup working in number 1 above?

    Cheers

  2. #2
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota
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    Default Re: Ignition Setup pros - advice on 4age haltech install

    re: option 1 - your 4 triggers should come about 60 degrees before BTDC for each cyl (ECU software will have a setting called 'Trigger Angle' or similar - this is how far ahead of TDC the trigger comes). ECU fires the coil for each trigger event, dizzi rotors sends spark to appropriate coil lead.


    suggestion? go back to the stock dizzi - it has two or three triggers (sorry, not that up to speed on 4AGE).

    build 1 or 2 of these (if you just use the 24-tooth wheel and punch off 2 opposing teeth is suitable spots then you have a 12-1 trigger wheel and that's enough data for wasted spark circuits:

    you can get 5v from the MAP sensor

    If you want direct fire, use the appropriate sensor from the dizzi that tells you when TDC #1 is.
    ------------------------------
    ST185 road barge / MZ11 forest barge / RA65 garage barge

  3. #3
    Forum Member 1st year Apprentice
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    Default Re: Ignition Setup pros - advice on 4age haltech install

    I know you said that you had heard about mixed results with reluctor adapters (turning analogue signal into digital), but I've heard very good things from people using the Haltech RA10 reluctor adapter with the notoriously weak Toyota triggers. And they are readily available here in Aus.

    They cost around $200 though, so I'm not sure if that's in your budget but just some food for thought .
    AE93 GTi - 3s-gte

  4. #4
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota
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    Default Re: Ignition Setup pros - advice on 4age haltech install

    I built the above diagram for about $20 - worked reliably with 22RE VR sensor and is used by plenty of Msefi nerds.
    ------------------------------
    ST185 road barge / MZ11 forest barge / RA65 garage barge

  5. #5
    Bodgepro Mechanic Grease Monkey Ghetto-Spec .:bayka:.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Ignition Setup pros - advice on 4age haltech install

    Thanks for the VR sensor stuff. I'm not ready to go down that path as ive developed the hall effect setup so far and its close.

    I do love that megasquirt documentation, I think the next ecu I buy will be megasquirt.

    My dizzy issue is "rotor phasing" where the dizzy rotor is not in the right place at the right time. I've modified it so that I can rotate it relative to the trigger wheel.

    Fully understand the degrees BTDC on the trigger wheel. I've locked the timing to 10 degs BTDC so that ignition maps will not be used. Pulled out sparkies and fuel pump relay and im going to use a timing gun and tweaking to try to get the damn thing timed correctly.

    Cheers

  6. #6
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota
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    Default Re: Ignition Setup pros - advice on 4age haltech install

    are you sure you can't put in a 'trigger angle' or 'timing base angle' setting into the ECU?
    ------------------------------
    ST185 road barge / MZ11 forest barge / RA65 garage barge

  7. #7
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic
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    Default Re: Ignition Setup pros - advice on 4age haltech install

    Ghetto Spec,

    Most after market ECUs will to this by adjusting the trigger angle, Not sue about the haltech E6A, but I know the E6GM using the same software does have a trigger angle adjustment.

    If it doesn't you are going to have to do this manually by rotating the base if at all possible.

    BTW I have used a 22re ignitior on a wasted spark setup using a crank trigger wheel to convert square wave signal. I also know people have used it on 3tgte vr sensor with success. comes in a neat package and save building the interface as described above.

    Either way you do it VR/hall effect you are going to have to adjust the trigger angle so I suggest it would be in the software. In fact from the E6A manual

    4.6.1 Ignition Setup
    The Ignition Setup works in an identical way to the Identification. Its fields are different and
    relate to the way the ignition advance is determined for the engine. Enter the Ignition Setup
    by pressing ¦s then I. The fields in the Ignition Setup for Basic Mode are:
    Trigger Degrees : This field tells the ECU where to expect the Main Trigger to occur. This
    field is very important for the correct operation of the ignition. If it is incorrect, the
    spark advance will also be incorrect, which could lead to engine damage. The ECU
    needs to receive an input trigger at a fixed engine angle Before Top Dead Center
    (BTDC) for each spark. This trigger may be set between 60° and 100° BTDC. See
    Chapter 5 [5.2-3] for detail on how to check the timing and this field.

    Lock Timing at 10 Degrees: This field is used for testing the trigger input. It allows the
    timing to be locked at ten degrees regardless of the engine speed and ignores the
    ignition map settings. This feature is further discussed in Appendix E

    Roger
    Last edited by 3jcelica; 13-07-2010 at 07:04 PM.

  8. #8
    Bodgepro Mechanic Grease Monkey Ghetto-Spec .:bayka:.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Ignition Setup pros - advice on 4age haltech install

    IT IS ALIVE

    I am pleased to announce that against all the odds, the bodgepro workshop has officially started the engine in project ke70.

    I think my issue was rotor phasing. I modified the distributor button so it could be rotated independently in respect to the trigger wheel (also mounted in the distributor). Once I had ignition timed at 10BTDC it was just a fuel issue. Using a 4agze starter motor really helped get it to fire.

    Base 4age fuel map provided by haltech was way too lean that it wouldn't even start. Need to get some other examples.

    Specs
    • 1983 Toyota KE70
    • 4AGE bluetop
    • Haltech E6A installed and tuned in dos using dosbox emulation
    • Fuel maps painstakingly set manually in dos using 4age base map for HalwinX software
    • Custom trigger interface using jaycar single channel hall effect sensor and ebay magnets
    • Total project cost $1500 (to date)

    Next steps:
    • Tune on road
    • 75hp nitrous


    Will post some pics up soon

  9. #9
    Gaters gonna Gate Conversion King Stomps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ignition Setup pros - advice on 4age haltech install

    Quote Originally Posted by Bayka
    Next steps:

    * Tune on road
    * Rip a skid
    * Film said skid and post here
    * 75hp nitrous
    fixed for you..

    top work bayka.. your car has taken almost as long as mine now.. are you still turning it with that POS old laptop Adam had? with the halwin software?

    Stomps

  10. #10
    Bodgepro Mechanic Grease Monkey Ghetto-Spec .:bayka:.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Ignition Setup pros - advice on 4age haltech install

    Nah I scored a free crappy laptop from a friend.

    Tuning fuel maps in dos is pretty slow but doable!

    I am definately looking forward to using windows based tuning software for next project.

    Fuel Maps
    Does anyone have a base fuel map for a 4age big port (blue top) ?

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