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Thread: turbo selection and max psi/revs for 7AGTE

  1. #1
    Learner / modder / Backyard Mechanic PrettyCoolWagon's Avatar
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    Default turbo selection and max psi/revs for 7AGTE

    Hi guys,
    My bottom ends at the engine buiders ATM, ..In the meantime I'm researching 2nd hand turbos online. No china shit, ..but anything from T28's to Toyota CT20's, wrx vf 29, nissan 16v, ..and many more. Budgets around $150-$600 (gumtree / ebay) ..the usual "no shaft play / oil spits etc.

    Feel free to fill me in on any of your 2nd hand turdbro experiences.

    The engine (1.8L) ,,estimate will be around 9.1:1CR with forged H-beam rods, ceramic top GZE pistons, has the oil squirters machined in, ARP gear allround, ported smallport with 3 angle valve cut, bigport cams, adjustable cam wheels ..custom intake and exhaust.

    What kind of reliable PSI & max RPM's could I push through an engine like this?

    (90% street use, 10% track)

    EDIT: using 430cc injectors
    Last edited by PrettyCoolWagon; 06-08-2013 at 05:34 AM.
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  2. #2
    AW11 <3 Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
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    Default Re: turbo selection and max psi/revs for 7AGTE

    lol 440cc injectors are pissweak. Using standard rail pressure you wont be able to get much further than about 180rwkw. If that is all you are after then an S15 turbo or a VF34 or anything of a similar size will do the job.

    If you get bigger injectors, 20+psi and north of 250rwkw wouldn't be out of the question, at which point i would be looking at something closer in size to a GT2871R. Rev limit and boost limit depend on a variety of factors but 20psi and 7000rpm would be what i would consider "safe" with anything further than that a bit of a question in terms of longevity...



    To give you somewhat of a point of reference, my 9AGTE build is going to be using ID2000s, a GTX3071R, and on E85 I will be shooting for around 500HP at the wheels (30psi/8000rpm)
    AW11 9A-GTE GTX3071R - project #1 | 1973 TA22 2T-G - project #2 | ZN6 86 GTS - daily
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

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    Learner / modder / Backyard Mechanic PrettyCoolWagon's Avatar
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    Default Re: turbo selection and max psi/revs for 7AGTE

    I'm in Victoria (Australia) and will be getting everything engineered, emission tested etc.
    180kw would be nice, ..but I could always use the 430cc injectors on my other 7AGZE build.

    I'm just not sure how far one can go with big injectors aftermarket ECU's etc, ..and still meet compliance.

    This is an engineer's reply in response to used car I was interested in fitted with turbo and aftermarket ECU.
    QUOTE: "...Gerard,

    The aftermarket turbo and ecm will not pass emissions regulations, unless the turbo manufacturer can supply a copy of a test report. So you would have to return the engine to standard condition to register it. The later model engine is no problem, provided it has all of the emissions control systems fitted - ecm, cat converter and O2 sensor.

    Regards,

    Laurie..." END QUOTE.
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    AW11 <3 Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
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    Default Re: turbo selection and max psi/revs for 7AGTE

    perhaps the laws are different in vic, but in nsw so long as you pass the emissions ratings for your car/engine you can do what you want.

    the easy way of doing that is to run e85 as you get far less emissions than petrol, a conservative tune and lower boost etc when you go for emissions testing wouldnt hurt either.

    perhaps obtain a second opinion? engineers can be VERY variable in terms of what they will/wont pass, as a lot of stuff is left up to their own "interpretation"

    but yeah if you are after 180rwkw, then those injectors will get you near enough, turbo wise you dont need anything beyond the usual tried and tested snails either, piece of piss really...
    AW11 9A-GTE GTX3071R - project #1 | 1973 TA22 2T-G - project #2 | ZN6 86 GTS - daily
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

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    Default Re: turbo selection and max psi/revs for 7AGTE

    hell even the united 100 octane stuff will clean up the emissions by just using.
    ask TRDEE and myself how we know...
    N/A for life...

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    Default Re: turbo selection and max psi/revs for 7AGTE

    you guys ever heard of running a small amount of isopropyl alcohol or Caltex's E10 Bio-fuel?

    Considering how 'built' the engine is, I'd love to pump some streetable power through it, ..but the whole emissions testing thing keeps my thoughts in check.

    Anyone know how volumetric efficiency and compression ratios affect emmissions?

    I found some scientific studies testing a wide range of Australian delivered vehicles.
    It made me think I could check all the EGR gear, hoses, sensors etc, .and use 2 late model cat converters, followed by muffler.

    I mean, any 1.8L turbo set up is still gonna shit all over the tired old 4AFE factory system which uses 1 cat and 2 mufflers.
    The pipe diameter and press bends are pretty shit too.

    I guess I'm trying to find a way to create a set up that will produce good figures (to me that's 180 - 200kws) ..and still be absolutely confident I'll sh*t it in when I go for emissions testing.
    4AFE/gearbox issues, 4AGT/ZE replacement changes to fully blown 7AGTE project...
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  7. #7
    AW11 <3 Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
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    Default Re: turbo selection and max psi/revs for 7AGTE

    running e10 or whatever is the same idea as e85 but less extreme. the ethanol cuts down on emissions..

    from a general standpoint (and I am searching back through my vague memory on this one) higher combustion chamber temps (from high compression ratios and/or running lean) generally lead to worse NOX levels, running too rich leads to higher carbon (soot) levels, you want a nice conservative tune and boost level to get yourself through the test as lots of boost generally means you want to tune quite rich to help suppress detonation and so on, which will kill your emissions.

    As for specifics, I don't know how well you will go making 180-200rwkw and passing emissions on petrol. You'll have to talk to someone who has actually done it before...
    AW11 9A-GTE GTX3071R - project #1 | 1973 TA22 2T-G - project #2 | ZN6 86 GTS - daily
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

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    Learner / modder / Backyard Mechanic PrettyCoolWagon's Avatar
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    Default Re: turbo selection and max psi/revs for 7AGTE

    Quote Originally Posted by trdee View Post
    running e10 or whatever is the same idea as e85 but less extreme. the ethanol cuts down on emissions..

    from a general standpoint (and I am searching back through my vague memory on this one) higher combustion chamber temps (from high compression ratios and/or running lean) generally lead to worse NOX levels, running too rich leads to higher carbon (soot) levels, you want a nice conservative tune and boost level to get yourself through the test as lots of boost generally means you want to tune quite rich to help suppress detonation and so on, which will kill your emissions.

    As for specifics, I don't know how well you will go making 180-200rwkw and passing emissions on petrol. You'll have to talk to someone who has actually done it before...
    Yep, from what I've read yo're right. I think I'll focus on passing first and power second.

    Victorian laws are so strict.
    no programmable ECU's or piggy backs
    no aftermarket boost controllers
    no adjustable fuel pressure regulators

    Basically nothing that can be adjusted after it's been tested.

    no wonder everyone says keep the engine bay 'looking' as stock as possible, get it engineered / roadworthy and install turbo later, ..but you're up sh*t creek legally if you have a stack or injure some one.

    Determined to jump through ADR / EPA's hoops!
    This would mean running a stock 4AGZE ECU (or cheat fitting microtech lt8 inside stock ECU housing! LOL! )

    I'm leaning towards IHI RHF-4B VF 13 BB turbo, same family of turbo was used in the 7AFTE sportivo.
    Will weld up an exhaust using late model low km cat converter from something like camry, ..independently tested well within Australian (& stricter euro) emissions standards.
    Other than that I'll check all the emissions sensors and vacuum hoses etc, ..replace with new if need be...

    So, ..if using only 4AGZE ECU, ..Any thoughts on gaskets?
    The head's been decked, ..no idea how much has been taken off, ..CR's probably around the 9.2:1 mark
    Have standard gasket, steel gasket and MLS ..OR could try 7AFE gasket.
    4AFE/gearbox issues, 4AGT/ZE replacement changes to fully blown 7AGTE project...
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    Default Re: turbo selection and max psi/revs for 7AGTE

    Quote Originally Posted by PrettyCoolWagon View Post
    Determined to jump through ADR / EPA's hoops!
    This would mean running a stock 4AGZE ECU (or cheat fitting microtech lt8 inside stock ECU housing! LOL! )
    Surely if you give a genuine rats arse about meeting emissions (drivability, fuel economy and performance), you'll use a better computer than a Microwreck???


    Quote Originally Posted by PrettyCoolWagon View Post
    So, ..if using only 4AGZE ECU, ..Any thoughts on gaskets?
    The head's been decked, ..no idea how much has been taken off, ..CR's probably around the 9.2:1 mark
    Have standard gasket, steel gasket and MLS ..OR could try 7AFE gasket.
    7AFE head gasket won't work with the 4AGE 16 valve head. The 7A HG will work with a 20 valve head. A factory GZE gasket would be worthwhile. Not sure if they are the same as a GE HG, though. ARP studs and a graphite gasket should last plenty long time. My unopened twin-charged GZE HG survived just fine swallowing 18psi. Obviously knock is a no-no!
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  10. #10
    AW11 <3 Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
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    Default Re: turbo selection and max psi/revs for 7AGTE

    Forget about passing emissions on a stock GZE ecu. I would have severe reservations about running that engine on a GZE ecu at all...

    get an adaptronic/autronic/etc and hide it somewhere
    AW11 9A-GTE GTX3071R - project #1 | 1973 TA22 2T-G - project #2 | ZN6 86 GTS - daily
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  11. #11
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    Default Re: turbo selection and max psi/revs for 7AGTE

    only reason I mentioned microtech lt8 was I recently acquired one.

    what about a 3sgte ECU? ..it could probably do the job, but might be a wiring nightmare.

    EPA know all about people trying to hide their aftermarket ECU's
    4AFE/gearbox issues, 4AGT/ZE replacement changes to fully blown 7AGTE project...
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  12. #12
    AW11 <3 Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
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    Default Re: turbo selection and max psi/revs for 7AGTE

    no, no and no
    AW11 9A-GTE GTX3071R - project #1 | 1973 TA22 2T-G - project #2 | ZN6 86 GTS - daily
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  13. #13
    Junior Member Conversion King maj's Avatar
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    Default Re: turbo selection and max psi/revs for 7AGTE

    Wouldn't aftermarket engine management system come under NCOP laws requiring engineering? That's my understanding on it since in ACT they are a no-no unless engineered.

    Considering you are looking at a 7AGTE, you would think engineering is a must, so just pony up and use a programmable ECU so you can get the most reliably out of the engine, and not blow it up in 6 months time with a GZE ECU.

    Sounds like to me the engineer has just quoted "it'll pass no problems if you use a pre-approved ADR engine with all standard running gear" approach. AFAIK if you use all pre-approved gear, you don't even need to do an EPA test since it's all been passed in another car.

    You are building an engine, not performing an engine swap, so your approach is much different.
    I think you should chat to another engineer. It is true you will need to think about emissions when doing your build, but as long as your catalytic converter is up to scratch, your tune will dictate whether it passes or not, along with the help xero and trdee have provided from their own experience.

    I think you're kinda missing the point regarding ECU's; most factory Toyota ECU's are useless for anything else than the engine they came with from factory. I wouldn't even bother trying to mod my factory GZE without going to an aftermarket ECU first.
    Autodub - 1987 AW11 G-Limited, Dark Blue Mica 4AGZE T-Top 4EAT - Rebuild in progress (transmission left now)
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    Default Re: turbo selection and max psi/revs for 7AGTE

    Alright...
    Well, perehaps I got the title of this thread all wrong and could've titled it '7AGTE Vicroads EPA Compliance'

    FWIW, ..A Melbourne guy made a 300KW ADR / EPA approved kit for hondas at significant R&D cost. Some holden specialists do it too. So compliance & +kw's is possible.
    Fair to say, ..it's out of the realms of a backyarder.

    Seriously, I've researched this.
    As mentioned earlier, the point is:

    "...Victorian laws are so strict.
    no programmable ECU's or piggy backs
    no aftermarket boost controllers
    no adjustable fuel pressure regulators

    Basically nothing that can be adjusted after it's been tested..."


    I'll fit the 4AGZE ECU, use stock injectors, make sure all the emissions gear and exhaust are up to scratch, along with brakes & suspension, fill up on E10 with a little isopropyl alcohol and go past the tests.

    I go to a lot of car shows and have seen cops waiting outside to bail drivers up all the time. I've also dealt with common law, compliance and court cases in other aspects of life.
    So once it's passed, I'll pop in th 430cc injectors, HKS piggyback & retune for a bit more poke. Call me a boring square pants, but that's as far as I'm prepared to go.
    Then I can carry a piece of paper for the cops and unplug the system easily if I ever need to.

    Thanks for all the input guys.
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    Junior Member Conversion King maj's Avatar
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    Default Re: turbo selection and max psi/revs for 7AGTE

    Okay doing some further research of my own it appears VicRoads have not yet adopted NCOP fully, so their rules regarding programmable ECU's are stricter, since they acknowledge they can be tuned to pass EPA but then reprogrammed.

    The only aspect you could argue with however, is that your particular engine build does not come with a factory ECU (no such thing as a 7AG), thus requiring one to be approved through the engineer.

    Otherwise it does appear you are stuck with a good engine build, that is seriously hamstrung by being only able to use 80's/90's technology to get the most out of it.
    I know HKS piggybacks work fine for GZE converted 4AGTE's but not sure regarding 7AGTE.

    I guess your only hope is the solution will be good enough for as long as it takes until Victoria adopts NCOP fully and you are allowed to run aftermarket management for best emissions, reliability and power.
    Autodub - 1987 AW11 G-Limited, Dark Blue Mica 4AGZE T-Top 4EAT - Rebuild in progress (transmission left now)
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    Default Re: turbo selection and max psi/revs for 7AGTE

    An early 7AGZE build used the old skool ECU set up, so it's do-able. I also have the HKS graphics control computer which helps iron out any final glitches.

    http://www.driftworks.com/forum/drif...-gt-coupe.html
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  17. #17
    AW11 <3 Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
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    Default Re: turbo selection and max psi/revs for 7AGTE

    According to the list it runs a powerFC as well, but I might be reading it wrong

    Either way, I think you are going to have serious issues getting this to run, let alone pass emissions. I would be happy to see you prove me wrong, but having tuned a few cars myself now I have seen how very small changes in fuel and spark settings can make a car undrivable so I doubt it
    AW11 9A-GTE GTX3071R - project #1 | 1973 TA22 2T-G - project #2 | ZN6 86 GTS - daily
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  18. #18
    Learner / modder / Backyard Mechanic PrettyCoolWagon's Avatar
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    Default Re: turbo selection and max psi/revs for 7AGTE

    Quote Originally Posted by trdee View Post
    According to the list it runs a powerFC as well, but I might be reading it wrong

    Either way, I think you are going to have serious issues getting this to run, let alone pass emissions. I would be happy to see you prove me wrong, but having tuned a few cars myself now I have seen how very small changes in fuel and spark settings can make a car undrivable so I doubt it
    Yes, change one thing, it affects another..

    I have: 4AGZE DLI ECU, PFC HKS F-CON & GCC plus HKS twin ignition booster.

    Have aslo read 3SGTE AFM could be used in place of the 4AGZE AFM, ..not sure how true that statement is though..

    With patience & persistence (and a few grey hairs!).....
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    Default Re: turbo selection and max psi/revs for 7AGTE

    I read up a litle more on 3SGTE AFM. It can be adjusted a bit to help tuning. A friend also runs one on his N/A 20v with stock ECU.

    So to run AFM I'd have to use the 4AGZE bigport ECU. which means I could run piggy back (after testing)

    Anyone think the 4AGZE smallport would do a better job/why?

    Also any knowledge on which turbo flows better OR spools faster:

    Garrett T25 or IHI RHF4B VF13 BB Twin Turbo? (I want throttle response.)

    EDIT: Also to help tuning using stock ECU, ..could I choose a different map sensor like the one used in Toyota 4EFTE / 3SGTE ?
    Last edited by PrettyCoolWagon; 14-08-2013 at 11:35 PM.
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