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Thread: trigger wheel options/suggestions for RWD'd 3SGE?

  1. #1
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota
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    Default trigger wheel options/suggestions for RWD'd 3SGE?

    hi folks,

    any thoughts on how I should go about fitting a trigger wheel (to suit waste-spark) to a RWD'd 3SGE?

    Ideally a 32-1 wheel running at crank speed is desired but I even a 24-1 or 12 tooth wheel (with separate home trigger wheel) would suffice.

    I think my initial plan for converting a gen2 dizzi into a CAS (see project link in sig) is going to fail as there's simple not enough room between head & firewall to fit the dizzi in the stock location.

    A gen4 (ST215) crank snout trigger might look good on paper but it then involves pulling the front off the motor and either aggressively modifying the casting or fitting a gen3/4 casting, oil pump, sump etc... Same applies to using same parts from a BEAMS motor ... they all involve a lot more parts and cashola.

    A cheap-arse option to just buy a 32-1 trigger wheel and bolt it to the front of the existing pulley - tho it would then be attached to the outer part of the ring and once the rubber isolation bits fail, the trigger wheel then turns into a circular saw and grinds away at the face of the VR sensor. This would also require some kind of fabricated sensor mount.

    A better option tho along the same route is a custom front pulley sans harmonic balancer with trigger wheel either milled into it or bolted on at the front. This obviously has acost implication.

    Other idea is a trigger wheel on the front or rear of the cams wheels (it would have to be similar pattern to the factory setup which is a 12-1 and using both wheels - one for 24 teeth, the other for the 2 home signals).

    Do I have any other options? or which of the above would you follow?
    ------------------------------
    ST185 road barge / MZ11 forest barge / RA65 garage barge

  2. #2
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic
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    Default Re: trigger wheel options/suggestions for RWD'd 3SGE?

    Quote Originally Posted by thechuckster View Post
    hi folks,

    A cheap-arse option to just buy a 32-1 trigger wheel and bolt it to the front of the existing pulley - tho it would then be attached to the outer part of the ring and once the rubber isolation bits fail, the trigger wheel then turns into a circular saw and grinds away at the face of the VR sensor. This would also require some kind of fabricated sensor mount.
    Chuckster, I have done exactly this on a gen 2 3sgte not because of cheap arse, but because I had the exact same setup on my 3tgte and therfore did not have to reconfigure the Mega Squirt. I have mine attached to the inner ring, there is already two bolt holes in there with a m8 thread. I simply bolted the wheel on, acurately measure the distance from the ring to the teeth on both sides, bolt it down and drilled a couple new holes tapped and bolted it all down. Being on the inner ring, no chance of circular sawing the sensor, however the bolts are a bit longer. I don't think there is enough meat in the outer ring. BTW I am using a DIY autotune wheel with 8 solts for bolt holes, makes mounting a little easier and as you say they are cheap

    Roger

  3. #3
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota
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    Default Re: trigger wheel options/suggestions for RWD'd 3SGE?

    Roger, ta for that - helps to know that I'm covering ground that others have passed first.

    if you have a pic of the sensor mount I'd greatly appreciate it ... I'll dig thru your build thread (if you have one) anyway.
    ------------------------------
    ST185 road barge / MZ11 forest barge / RA65 garage barge

  4. #4
    iconoclast Backyard Mechanic Youngy's Avatar
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    Default Re: trigger wheel options/suggestions for RWD'd 3SGE?

    I bought mine from here - http://www.trigger-wheels.com/store/

    and am currently mounting to the back side of the crank pulley with a number of small blind threaded holes in the inner 'flesh' part on the inside of the rubber dampers. Different engine though. But thought that link might be of use to you.

    Like this - http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/...a/DSCF0628.jpg

  5. #5
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota
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    Default Re: trigger wheel options/suggestions for RWD'd 3SGE?

    Thanks youngy - unfortunately there's no room at the rear of the pulley to fit a trigger wheel (is pic a 3T or 18RG?) Only place is out front or right inside the housing at the rear of the cam belt pulley (as the 215 abd BEAMS motors have them placed). If it was like my old 18R, then behind the belt grooves would be a walk in the park.

    Going via some random google searches I come up with examples like these:
    http://www.mr2.com/forums/attachment...h-dscn2509.jpg
    (not a fan of welding the ring onto the outer part of the harmonic balancer)

    http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/a...e/STH71681.jpg
    (gen2 turbo in an spoonta, probably has alloy crank pulley)

    This is how Biggo's 3SGE convo turned out (used dizzi as CAS)- but he did do custom mounts on the cross member and has plenty of room between firewall and motor:
    http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/1797/nick1743.jpg


    I'll post a pic of the pulley later, but for those interested in measurements the OD of the pulley is ~135mm so the OD of any trigger wheel should be ~155mm.

    DIY autotune have something that probably fits as 3jcelica has done:
    http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/3...eel-p-181.html
    ($29USD plus freight)

    or to try and fit it on the lip of the outer part of the pulley, an ID of ~115mm, then a ring-gear style of wheel would fit, e.g.:
    http://www.trigger-wheels.com/store/.../en-uk/d5.html
    (5.75" wheel with 4.5" hole)
    (£19UK plus freight)


    edit: 3SGE front crank pulley / harmonic balancer...

    Last edited by thechuckster; 05-09-2012 at 11:59 PM.
    ------------------------------
    ST185 road barge / MZ11 forest barge / RA65 garage barge

  6. #6
    Junior Member Automotive Encyclopaedia stidnam's Avatar
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    Default Re: trigger wheel options/suggestions for RWD'd 3SGE?

    Check out this page

    Alternatively use a late 5sfe oil pump that has provision for the CAS. The factory crank pulley with the trigger wheel is about $60-80. All nice an neat and higher volume oil pump.

  7. #7
    MR 18RG Chief Engine Builder The Witzl's Avatar
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    Default Re: trigger wheel options/suggestions for RWD'd 3SGE?

    thats a pretty good solution there Stidnam.

    What we did on my 18RG was machine OFF the *unused* front belt grooves of the crank pulley, and then machined out the inside of a trigger wheel to match.
    Then drill, tap and bolt the two together, and make up a bracket for the sensor.

    Pics here:

    http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1331095039

    http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1331095043


    I like the method stidnam suggested, with a machined spacer inside the crank pulley which the trigger disc then bolts to. Would cost a little bit more in machining... but hey, seems there is an off the shelf option - go with that!!
    Last edited by The Witzl; 06-09-2012 at 03:21 PM.
    ...... butt scratcher?!


  8. #8
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic
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    Default Re: trigger wheel options/suggestions for RWD'd 3SGE?

    The chuckster,

    The trigger wheel you point to is the one that I am using. I used the two holes (as shown in your bottom pick) already in the pulley to align the trigger wheel, with some carefull measurements. I then marked up the other two holes at the correct PCD, drilled and tapped. Alternatively you could make up a mount like that off the shelf solution to sit down in the pully and 4 holes on a PCD to bolt the same wheel on. I have not done the sensor mount yet, but intend to copy that kits mount but on the other side (I have the alternator on the drivers side).

    BTW Witzl, what is that sensor off? I have been using the AU crank angle sensor, but that one looks easier to mount in my situation. I could use a cheery hall effect I have here, but can't be stuffed changin over to a hall sensor.

    Roger
    Last edited by 3jcelica; 06-09-2012 at 08:50 PM.

  9. #9
    Junior Member Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: trigger wheel options/suggestions for RWD'd 3SGE?

    sometime back I did a 4 throttle 3sge in rwd configuration for my friend's ta22 celica and fully modded the stock dizzy to run cas sensors, wasted spark and Megasuirt. Absolutely no cutting and banging the rear firewall. Unfortunately the thread I posted in has already gone dead with the details of the build. I think I still have the pics of the modded dizzy somewhere, if you need it I could try digging it up for you.

  10. #10
    MR 18RG Chief Engine Builder The Witzl's Avatar
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    Default Re: trigger wheel options/suggestions for RWD'd 3SGE?

    3jcelica - the VR sensor I'm using is the one on this page here: http://www.trigger-wheels.com/store/...en-uk/d10.html
    As a side note, a similar housing hall sensor is available from DIYautotune, here - http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/h...sor-p-479.html
    ...... butt scratcher?!


  11. #11
    Junior Member Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: trigger wheel options/suggestions for RWD'd 3SGE?

    Witzl, similar setup to one I used for my old 3SG RWD. I also cut the stock dizzy down and machined the teeth off the lower trigger wheel in the dizzy leaving only 1 tooth for cam position sensing.
    Motec M4 ran it all and I had no issues. Nice to see the pics. PS yes your sensor looks better. I used one from Motec. I think its a standard Ford item but bulkier than yours...

  12. #12
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota
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    Default Re: trigger wheel options/suggestions for RWD'd 3SGE?

    Cheers and thanks guys - lots of things to think about... tho I'm tending towards making something like the TEC kit but using a trigger wheel from DIY autotune.

    Stidnam: I looked up TEC³ (aka electromotive) but they no longer have that kit listed. I will drop them an email to see if it is available and/or some more details about the sensor mount.

    Witzl: unfortunately I need both grooved sections on the pulley (inner for power-steer, outer for A/C and Alt). I have some EDIS hardware including VR sensors and they seem like the way to go as they're already ruggedized. In any case, the ECU is already setup for a VR input.

    3jcelica: I'll draw up the adaptor and try to get a price for making it. Originally I thought perhaps two thick stand-off posts might be enough but a thick-ring mount for the trigger wheel sounds the go. If I can get a 3D version of the adaptor, will post it online. fwiw, If I can model it with eMachine's software, I'll see what their system prices it at.

    metcap: The dizzi in my setup (gen2 GTE unit, using both trigger wheels but not for spark) might physically fit between motor & firewall but to fit the motor+box into the car and have the bell-housing clear the p/steer rack/lines would have see it smashed on the lip below the windscreen grill. Also, there wouldn't have been enough room to remove the dizzi from the motor once the motor is in place.

    rolleraction: What chassis and cross member were you using? I'm using SA63 cross member and mounts.

    Next step will be to collect all these links and summarize/add them to my build thread and find a PC that I can run some basic CAD software on.
    ------------------------------
    ST185 road barge / MZ11 forest barge / RA65 garage barge

  13. #13
    Cressidaspert Carport Converter andrew_mx83's Avatar
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    Default Re: trigger wheel options/suggestions for RWD'd 3SGE?

    heres how i did my first waste spark setup on a 7m.


    note the beefy VR bracket to keep the harmonics down for a clean signal. the trigger wheel isnt gonna come off and if it does and destroys a $10 sensor off a dirty AU from the wreckers, who cares?


    its time to put waste spark on my daily but having moved upto CNC i think this time i will put the the balancer on the mill and notch out the required 36-1 teeth from either the front or rear flange and mount the VR elsewhere for extra neatness (i also need the AC tensioner this time)



    send user Sam_Q a pm, i saw some fancy dizzy work on his 3s-gte rwd conversion today. im not sure what hes doing is what you're after but maybe similar and i can 110% vouch for his work.
    There is no substitute for PUBIC inches

    Never late in an x8

  14. #14
    Junior Member Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: trigger wheel options/suggestions for RWD'd 3SGE?

    Quote Originally Posted by thechuckster View Post
    Cheers and thanks guys - lots of things to think about... tho I'm tending towards making something like the TEC kit but using a trigger wheel from DIY autotune.


    metcap: The dizzi in my setup (gen2 GTE unit, using both trigger wheels but not for spark) might physically fit between motor & firewall but to fit the motor+box into the car and have the bell-housing clear the p/steer rack/lines would have see it smashed on the lip below the windscreen grill. Also, there wouldn't have been enough room to remove the dizzi from the motor once the motor is in place.
    yea you're right about a hard time removing the dizzy in a RWD setup but that the beauty about running a cas, I only had to dail in the initial deg and set spark timing in MS and no more messing with the dizzy/cas. And what I liked about it was that it looked neat and stock.
    DSC03438a.jpg

  15. #15
    Senior ****** Carport Converter Sam_Q's Avatar
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    Default Re: trigger wheel options/suggestions for RWD'd 3SGE?

    here is what I have:



    This cover is 25.4mm thick. I made a batch of 4, one went on my own engine, another sold to a friend doing an indivual coil conversion, one dud, one and one spare still. I will machine another when I am doing the 20v blanking covers at the same time.


    My dizzy kit is incomplete but almost there:



    I need to take a photo of my custom rear water outlet as well as my coilpack adapter plate.

    I had the need for these on my own engine however I thought I would make some extras in the unlikely event that others would be doing the same conversion

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