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Thread: 4AG headwork, now block too

  1. #61
    Junior Member Domestic Engineer
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Removing sharp edges whether it be at the transition from the CC to the deck (edge) or some ridiculous casting mark is all out preventing hot spots/detonation. Nothing more or less... sorry to disappoint those thinking about flow numbers.... lol

    Your actual valve edge/seat angles have more effect on flow then any polishing of CC's.... so if you really want to be picky, find out what TRD valve edge/seat angles + Cams were in N/A and/or F/A Heads and use that. Any deviation from that and you could bet your mortgage on it losing power. No need to re-invent the wheel. There is only so much you can do with these old heads as the ports don't have the wall thickness required to mould them into current generation port shapes.

    Rep points are for those who feel inadequate in other areas !

  2. #62
    Olde mechanic Automotive Encyclopaedia oldeskewltoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Quote Originally Posted by abently
    Removing sharp edges whether it be at the transition from the CC to the deck (edge) or some ridiculous casting mark is all out preventing hot spots/detonation. Nothing more or less... sorry to disappoint those thinking about flow numbers.... lol
    Exactly what Loynings told me... They did like the job I did... between getting the volumes correct and removing the points of detonation.


    Quote Originally Posted by abently
    ........so if you really want to be picky, find out what valve edge/seat angles + Cams were in N/A and/or F/A Heads and use that.
    Loynings is an F/A builder... they have developed a one piece cutter that cuts all three angles at the same time.
    Information is POWER... learn the facts!!

  3. #63
    ......... Carport Converter jeffro ra28's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    I think you are largely correct. However flow in more cases then not will be gained mainly on exhaust port due to the smoother transition from chamber to valve seat.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldeskewltoy
    Loynings is an F/A builder... they have developed a one piece cutter that cuts all three angles at the same time.
    You mean they scrolled through the serdi/mondello catolouge and selected a multi angle cutter to suit their purpose?

  4. #64
    Olde mechanic Automotive Encyclopaedia oldeskewltoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffro ra28
    You mean they scrolled through the serdi/mondello catolouge and selected a multi angle cutter to suit their purpose?
    They may have....... but, I was TOLD....... they developed it after 1000s of hours of flow bench testing.

    They have developed other parts/services too. Their 4AG timing pulley centers have a mass of less than 50 grams, they are machined to be a zero tolerance fit** they use stock pulley outters for they fit belts the best. They use both an engine dyno and chassis dyno( good for 1000hp, and 200mph.)
    ** - the timing pulley center is counter bored so the mating surface between cam and pulley is more than the dowel pin and the flat surface, the pulley actually cups the end of the cam. They aren't cheap........ $175 EACH, for the centers and $150 to modify each pulley

    Here is their home link.... http://www.loynings.com/
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  5. #65
    SC14 7AGZE Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Quote Originally Posted by oldeskewltoy
    concerning??????
    The dry film lubricant on the piston skirts. I can get it pretty cheap for around $40 a tub, but an old racer mentor of mine says its probably not worth it. I was thinking about coating my bearings, piston skirts and camshaft with it. But still haven't seen any real world proof of its effect.

    Only literature, no dyno sheets or temperature readings, or tear down after X amount of miles using the stuff, nothing.
    SC14 7AGZE build: http://beasted86.webs.com/

  6. #66
    SC14 7AGZE Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Quote Originally Posted by oldeskewltoy
    Loynings is an F/A builder... they have developed a one piece cutter that cuts all three angles at the same time.
    What interference angle are you running on the valves?

    I know alot of rebuilders run a valve to seat angle of 45 degrees on the valve with 46 degree on the seat, but I've been doing some reading that says there are pure race engines that run different angles ranging as far as 60 degrees.
    SC14 7AGZE build: http://beasted86.webs.com/

  7. #67
    Olde mechanic Automotive Encyclopaedia oldeskewltoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Quote Originally Posted by turbo4agte
    What interference angle are you running on the valves?

    I know alot of rebuilders run a valve to seat angle of 45 degrees on the valve with 46 degree on the seat, but I've been doing some reading that says there are pure race engines that run different angles ranging as far as 60 degrees.
    When I started this, I was planning on using the TRD specs.... Arnie(Arnie Loyning) smiled at me and told me to trust him..... he's been building successful engines for over 30 years.

    Arnie Loyning... and my engine, in pieces, on a shop cart
    Information is POWER... learn the facts!!

  8. #68
    ......... Carport Converter jeffro ra28's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    If you have ever scrolled through a seat cutter catologue there are hundreds if not thousands of cutters available. Varying from 1 angle to 7 angle one peice seat cutters with up to a half a degree of difference per angle. There is alot to choose from, with seats available developed by numerous top engine builders. Its just a matter of choosing a whole bunch of them, testing them on flow bench, wet flow testing them, then finally on the dyno to see which valve seat angles are optimum for that port, valve size, bore size and basic engine design.


    I cannot comment on speciall valve angles for 4 valve engines other then 45 degrees. However on 2 valve engines, 50-55 degree seats was and i think still is the performance trend. Used in Nascar and possibly prostock applications. Prostock perhaps more because of the engines life expectancy.

    They find 45 degree's to be best for longevity generally. A 50 degree or more seat is only really ever used in outright performance applications.

    Its good having 30 years of engine rebuilding experience on your side. However to often these old skewl dudes are stuck in there ways and are not up to date with the most recent performance trends because they are practicing what they were taught 30 years ago. Im not saying this is the case, but just be weary that just because they have 30 years experience, doesnt mean they are doing the most up to date or best known modifications to your engine.

  9. #69
    SC14 7AGZE Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Thanks... answered my question. Wanted to add + rep, but says I have to spread it around.
    SC14 7AGZE build: http://beasted86.webs.com/

  10. #70
    Olde mechanic Automotive Encyclopaedia oldeskewltoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Warning taken....

    That old skewl guy... still races his creations too.... 2 weeks back in a local event he won going away in a Lotus Elan...



    The above is from the TRD 4AGE build info that is in the TRD "Bible". I had originally shown Loynings that photo... he asked me to trust him... that they had worked out what flowed well. Arnie told me it was an improvement over the TRD specs....

    Once the engine is assembled, all the timing is set accurately... and the new management is running well, I'll post up the dyno runs.
    Information is POWER... learn the facts!!

  11. #71
    Olde mechanic Automotive Encyclopaedia oldeskewltoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Quote Originally Posted by oldeskewltoy
    Once the engine is assembled, all the timing is set accurately... and the new management is running well, I'll post up the dyno runs.
    a basic spec sheet of the system I'll be running....

    Information is POWER... learn the facts!!

  12. #72
    SC14 7AGZE Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    I guess your deviating from your original plans... cause I know for sure smog laws requires the stock computer in place. Or is Oregon emissions different from California smog?
    SC14 7AGZE build: http://beasted86.webs.com/

  13. #73
    ......... Carport Converter jeffro ra28's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    I know we have covered this.
    It just came to mind that most big budget top engine shops dont even use a one peice cutter anymore.
    They have cnc machines that do the works. I cant remember the exact figures as i have lost the promotional CD from newen but they can fit any amount of angles in a spaces of 1mm. You can dial in watever you want and do not even need a special fixed one peice cutter anymore. There are a few Australian engine shops that have CNC porting machines but only one that i know of has the capability to do CNC profiled valve seats like this. When i was making cylinder heads at my last place of work we had some CNC porting and valve seats done by them and they could dial in whatever valve seat we wanted. It was kinda kewl to say the least.

    Heres a peak at something similar http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=0lRyn-yAvvo

    P.S. Im glad you have chosen to trust Arnie with your valve seats. That TRD spec looks like nothing more then a stock blueprint. Its nothing special at all.

  14. #74
    SC14 7AGZE Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Man that CNC machine looks cool... I wonder if they could do a 7 angle valve cut...

    As you said above for the most part the TRD drawing shows the standard 30-45-60 cutting of the seat... but one thing I found odd was they called for 15 degrees on the exhaust side. I know the head I bought was just the standard 3 angle 30-45-60, and Im not going to put more money trying to find out whats optimum.
    SC14 7AGZE build: http://beasted86.webs.com/

  15. #75
    Your mum is a Conversion King TERRA Operative's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffro ra28
    There are a few Australian engine shops that have CNC porting machines but only one that i know of has the capability to do CNC profiled valve seats like this.
    Who are they? I'm starting to build a head for my GZE.
    Bomex, Carbing, Cusco, HKS, JVC, Royal Purple, Team Orange, Tom's, TRD, Works Bell
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    Olde mechanic Automotive Encyclopaedia oldeskewltoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Quote Originally Posted by turbo4agte
    I guess your deviating from your original plans... cause I know for sure smog laws requires the stock computer in place. Or is Oregon emissions different from California smog?
    Oregon just has to be clean..... in theory you can run a blacktop, if it passes the standard...your usually fine....
    Information is POWER... learn the facts!!

  17. #77
    ......... Carport Converter jeffro ra28's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Quote Originally Posted by turbo4agte
    Man that CNC machine looks cool... I wonder if they could do a 7 angle valve cut....

    From what i read on the NEWEN promotion CD they could fit any amount of angles in on the space of your valve seat insert. Dont quote me on how many angles exactly but its alot! More then anyone would ever want.

    The reason why you DONT want totally smooth radiused intake seat angles is because it is beleived to reduce the fuel atomisation of the port in that area.
    The sharp transition from angle to angle as the air rushes past is said to help break up the film of fuel on the intake ports into tiny droplets, improving the air fuel mix, bla bla, etc etc. Sorry i couldnt explain that better. Ill try and find a diagram.

    Heres a vid of some wet flow testing http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=163HLh74Lks

    The radiused seat insert may improve airflow, but any performance gain is soon lost because of the fuel atomising qaulities compared to angles is then lost. However on the exhaust port most people specify to use a radiused seat insert. Obviously because it improves air flow and there is no fuel film. So if you are wondering why a radiused exhaust seat and not intake. Then generally speaking that is what i beleive the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by TERRA Operative

    Who are they? I'm starting to build a head for my GZE.
    I would only recomend this if you have a LARGE budget. Obviously such technology costs. Most performance engine shops will be able accomodate just about all markets with a 5-7 angle one peice cutter. They also offer full CNC porting for most makes of performance inspired and popular engines.
    However If you are planning to break records, win highly competetive races or generally just spend alot of money. Send me a PM and i can inform you further. They will not deal direct to public.

  18. #78
    Olde mechanic Automotive Encyclopaedia oldeskewltoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Speaking about budget.......


    I don't really consider this a costly build. ALL of the machine work, all inhouse work, and intricate assembly is being done by Loynings. The cost is $2600 (USD) that includes bearings too.

    additional costs
    block, head, crank, rods - USED - $400
    pistons, rings, pins - new - $525
    ancillitories - new - $200 (water pump and plumbing, oil pump)
    crank pulley and flywheel - new - $415
    Canshafts - new - $650
    1SZ one piece valve buckets - new - $200
    management - new - $2700 (the only none new part will be the TPS, everything else - all sensors/switches, and wiring will be new)

    the unexpected - $250

    just shy of $8000, for a completely new engine.

    One that should produce nearly 50% more power, on the same(or nearly the same) amount of fuel. Along with the power increase, I also expect an emissions decrease.
    Last edited by oldeskewltoy; 03-08-2008 at 01:53 AM.
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  19. #79
    SC14 7AGZE Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    50% more power of stock 115 would be 172.5hp... is that the goal of this project. A lean burn ~170hp 4AGE with more torque than a 20v?

    Wow.... Talk about setting your goals high
    SC14 7AGZE build: http://beasted86.webs.com/

  20. #80
    Olde mechanic Automotive Encyclopaedia oldeskewltoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Quote Originally Posted by turbo4agte
    50% more power of stock 115 would be 172.5hp... is that the goal of this project. A lean burn ~170hp 4AGE with more torque than a 20v?

    Wow.... Talk about setting your goals high

    nearly 50%..... 112 in the USA = 168

    my idea was closer to 160-165 @ the crank but the rest is about right...

    A clean burn 160-165hp 16V 4AGE with more torque than a 20v
    Last edited by oldeskewltoy; 03-08-2008 at 03:14 PM.
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