3sgte Limits???

[Douglas Black]

All, Happy New Year

I would under normal circumstances resist the urge to launder my filthy ignorance in public like this, but today I purchased Zoom magazine, Issue 108… Not normally a bad read…

This month includes an article regarding the 3SGTE, an engine I have always regarded as possibly some of the best engineering to come from Toyota (other than the 1/2JZ). I had high hopes of at some point building an engine that made a lot of power and was high revving (I was once told you could get an upgrade on the factory computer which would allow the ST185 rev to 8000 rpm so always believed a well built unit should be able to make 10,000 easily enough especially given some of the Beams offerings).

The article goes on to talk about WTF Auto, and all the big HP engines they have built, sounds like a genuine group with a lot of experience… They describe my precious 3SGTE (Gen II and III) as being limited to approximately 260RWKW by the non Siamese design of the two bores in the centre. The solution to this is apparently to use the 5SFE block (you also get an extra 200cc of displacement). If you have any interest in anything 3SGTE or 5SFE I highly recommend a read.

I did a little scratching around on the WWW and the only thing I was able to find was a couple of fairly general articles regarding Rod Millens Pikes Peak Celica which apparently made 800HP with a 3SGTE engine… It read to me like this may have been speculation rather than fact though…

I seek anyone who has pushed their 3SGTE project to the outer limits of what is reasonable, and didn’t crack bores or otherwise ruin their block and my dream…. Its one of those things when you are sure that you have read about one, but go find that article again???

If a thread of this nature exists please let me know. Otherwise, I look forward to your response.

Thanks and Regards,

JD

[hamgatan]

ahhh my area of expertise (and love..)

right where do i start.. just to clarify BEAMS does not equal 3SGTE. BEAMS = Gen IV 3SGE (N/A)..

heard WTF were in this months Zoom about 3 weeks ago.. Tristan Hewitt is a god over west here with 3SGTE's. There aint much that boy cant do. Basically his two babies (BURNINATE & IT TAKES 2) were making 470rwhp and 352rwhp respectively. BURNINATE is currently off the road awaiting a new engine, and despite Tristans previous musings that he was going to build another 600hp + 3SGTE to throw into it, I think this idea has bottomed out as I believe hes now got a nice shiny 1MZFE to play with in its place.. will be interesting to see what he does with it. IT TAKES 2 is still cranking well and if you want to see exactly what its got in it - http://www.wtfauto.com.au

As far as big number MR2's go.. the official international records board stands as such -

http://www.mr2ownersclub.com/mr2records/dyno.htm

...And surprise surprise theres a supercharged 1MZ down that list there somewhere making 450+ at the wheels. some of these guys though, and youll notice this trend, are using gigantic laggy turbo's and not making anywhere near the power figures they should be. im buggered if i know why.. maybe a little more inspection into their complete mods list would give us an indication..

... another beefy 3SGTE doing the rounds is Fensport Corolla 4WD 600hp a.t.w. This was showcased on the movie/comedy/waste of $2.95 a night movie hire.. "High Octane Detonate" recently. http://www.fensport.co.uk (I do recommend watching it just for the motoring value, not the Ketzal Sterling playing with teh massif dong value)

I can firmly say, you aren't going to have a hope in hell of making those numbers without some block work. a lot of these run 5SFE blocks due to the strength and the displacement as you've no doubt read. That, and the 2.2L displacement can be attained far cheaper/easier than a JUN 2.2L stroker kit which costs in excess of $5K USD. The weakest part of the 3SGTE is cracking blocks. Its prevalent mostly on gen III's as their blocks are weaker than gen II's.

There are threads scattered wide and far on Toymods, just ask the questions and we answer! (usually... )

[TA22 1MZ]

Zoom always has a negative to point out against the 3SGTE whenever a conversion uestion is raised. Usually along the lines of "maintainence expensive", need alot of TLC.
I have had my Gen2 engine in my TA22 now for 4 years, it makes 250kw at the rear at 17psi with standard internals. It never gets driven tamely, only ever at Wakefield park or the drags etc.. ie, it is constantly at its limits all the time.
It still hasnt broken! I am upgrading at the moment to a very built motor internally because I have seen the limits of the standard motor, bar pumping extra psi into it.
My choice is always the 3SGTE engine, loves to rev and loves boost.

[jfallen]

the Pikes peak celica runs a 503e race motor form the early 80's of which little is realy known, exeept that the bottom end may be based on the 3/4TGTE's?

Pretty sure the JGTC guys know what they're on about when they get a very reliable 500ps, with a restrictor from the 3SGTE, at 2L.

Zoom like the now defunct 'Speed' magazine never gave the 3S much credit.

there is also a good artilce of a 3SGTE that was built for desert racing on autospeed, (might need to be a member to read)
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_1568/article.html

Cheers
Jordan

[Roundy]

I seek anyone who has pushed their 3SGTE project to the outer limits of what is reasonable, and didn’t crack bores or otherwise ruin their block and my dream…. Its one of those things when you are sure that you have read about one, but go find that article again???

the MR2 guys in the states seem to think ~700rwhp (so ~600kw at the flywheel) to be about the limit of the 3S block...now that is a huge amount of power, if u are shooting for that i wish you luck!

from what i have found, 0.5mm overbore is about the limit you want on a gen 2 block to have reliability at higher power outputs.

also revving it high is a lil bit pointless...creates more stress, and you have a turbo to push more air in sure it can give u a bit longer between shifts, but unless it is just for drag racing i fail to see the need to rev it about 8k (even 7.5k)

Cheers
Nathan

[off-road]

Thats my motor ^^^^ but I've never read the full article. We had our fair share of dramas with that motor including a split bore.We now run a TTE motorsport block that we got off Bates and a lot smaller turbo turbo to get some bottom end.
Since Ivan Albins built his bullet proof transaxle offf-road racers are now running much bigger motors and 2 litre turbos have had there day.

[JustenGT8]

For street use, drags and more casual track days the 3SGTE can be modded easily, safely and reliably to big hp. Try to run big hp for longer periods though (any real competition work) and the thermal loads are too much for the design and bye bye block.

The Gen III block is the one to get BUT you need to have it x-rayed as there's a large batch out there where the casting shifted creating a slightly thinner walled bore and these are the blocks that fail easily. Bates X-rayed all his blocks and sent back a fair proportion so it looks like a bit of a lucky dip.

The Mitsu Evo motors are king of the 4cyl turbos but the 3S is still a good bit of kit.

[Joshstix]

While I enjoy my 3S, and it does go alright 290rwkw and revs to 8400rpm, I would not build another one. Actually I wouldn't build one using a 3S block is more to the point. I did crack the block running 10psi of boost and making ~205rwkw. Since sleeving it the engine has been great but it's an expensive lesson.

It's true the Gen3 is by far the better engine, however if you want to make serious power you're going to replace practically everything that makes it a superior engine anyway.

There are very few situations where I would choose a 3SGTE as the best engine upgrade. In fact the AW11 and TA22 would be the only cars I would bother swapping a 3SGTE into. Ironic that the two people replying who currently have swapped 3S's are using those two conversions. In reality there is nothing outstanding about the 3S design, in fact the blocks are VERY ordinary. Unless you're very constrained for space there are far better engines to try and get serious power out of.

[lojik]

Perhaps off topic.... and just out of interest
How do they compare to the subaru 2L boxer offerings?

[Joshstix]

Perhaps off topic.... and just out of interest
How do they compare to the subaru 2L boxer offerings?

I've never contemplated comparing the two. I see no situation where you would need to decide, on the merits of the engine itself rather than the packaging, which is the superior engine.

Having said that I am not a fan of the EJ20.

[aw11man]

This is the concern i have with a 3sgte in my aw11. I have heard that the beams gen4 n/a block is stronger and is used in the ARC corolla, from what i understand this is true hope so cos it is what i am planning, can anyone confirm?

[BeRad]

ive owned a gen 2 3sgte and agree they are a good engine with alot of potential, but id tend to disagree with the best since sliced bread,

3rzfe for the win

[tooch]

Does anyone know anything about the 'Gen 4' 3SGTE's out of the ST215 Toyota Caldina's, do they run the same block as the Gen 3, or is it a completely new casting? I believe brand new blocks from Toyota aren't prohibitively expensive, so I'm wondering if they would be a better option for someone wanting to build a high HP 3SGTE?

[Marc205]

the Pikes peak celica runs a 503e race motor form the early 80's of which little is realy known, exeept that the bottom end may be based on the 3/4TGTE's?

Apparently the 503e was the basis for the 3s-gte (reference) though no parts are shared. It was apparently based on the race version of the 2T and 18R engines (the 151e and 152e - reference). The 503e was the engine used in the JGTC prior to the adoption of the V8s.

I've been searching for info on this motor for a while - short of actually buying one from Toysport, I don't know where you'd get good info. (There were only ever 200 made.) I've heard figures of 1200HP in qualifying trim (40PSI) and 800HP in race trim (30PSI). I gather they're available from Toyota for (only) $30K. Or you could by an AWD MR2 which (rumour has it) has one fitted.

[Douglas Black]

Thanks guys,

I had not come across that MR2 web site, I would have thought some of their times were quicker for the hp (one made 780rwhp).

Also does having the engine sleeved fix the cracked bore issue permanently? And does it cost only one limb?

Regards
JD

[Andrew162]

Does anyone know anything about the 'Gen 4' 3SGTE's out of the ST215 Toyota Caldina's, do they run the same block as the Gen 3, or is it a completely new casting? I believe brand new blocks from Toyota aren't prohibitively expensive, so I'm wondering if they would be a better option for someone wanting to build a high HP 3SGTE?

tooch I believe the GenIV 3S-GTE's out of the ST215 Caldina are a VVTi offering mate, so while they may not run the same head, I'm not 100% sure if they'd run the same block.

I'd love to raid a BEAMS engine out of an NZ RAV4 and bring it over here for a tidy conversion in my 162.

edit: Doug, my 3S-GTE into my old RAV4 (and it's rebuilds and rewiring exercise) cost several limbs, some of which I'm regrowing, but others which I'm still paying off.

[-Totenkopf-]

Im getting a 5s/3sgte hybrid built at the moment. I'm using a 5sfe block and crank, block sleeved and bored to 88MM, crank at the standard 91mm stroke. Using custom rods (pauter) and pistons (cp) to keep the rod ratio pretty much the same as the standard (~1.58 as compared to stock 1.6) and still boast of displacement of over 2.2L's. Head will be worked with oversized valves, ported and polished, cams, springs, retainers, shimless bucket conversion, etc.

I can supply more details for anyone who is interested.

I didn't want to risk having a 3sgte block cracking on a ~$10000 engine, so I paid a little extra for a bit of insurance. I intend to hit around 550-600whp on race gas, and hopefully 500 or just short on pump gas. Turbo im running is a garret GT35R.

[jfallen]

Apparently the 503e was the basis for the 3s-gte

Yeah the toysport site has some good information. What I wouldn't give for a 4TGTE , even one of the 18.L. Just to have one.

all hail the power crasied 80's, group B and the 1500hp 1.5LT F1 cars of the day. All the best 1.8-2.1L motors were built between 1983 and 1986.

For the record the 3STGE in the ST215 does NOT have VVTi only the red and black top BEAMS NA motors do. The other oddity of that motor it that hte turbo and exhaust manifold are 1 unit

Cheers
Jordan

[Roundy]

For the record the 3STGE in the ST215 does NOT have VVTi

are u sure?? i always thought it did!

[jfallen]

Right from the horses mouth

There is also information on Toysport and various other sources.

Cheers
Jordan