Need Info on correctly sealing a copper head gasket with o-rings

[kemicalx]

As the title suggest,

I'm after any information on the correct way of installing O-rings and a copper head gasket,

i found this site useful for the preparation and installation of the gasket http://www.headgasket.com/preinstall.html

but i'm still in need of some info reguarding o-ringing. Any .pdf's, websites or past experience would be great,

Cheers.
Ash.

[Andrew162]

not 100% sure on this, but I was looking into having this done on my RAV's 3S-GTE when it was in rebuild phase. From what I understand of it, the O-ringing is usually done on the block (though some go for the head) and uses a thin-gauge piano-wire or similar. The piano-wire is inset into small grooves machined around the outside of each cylinder bore and the wire put in place accordingly. Usually a shop that does specialty machining would be the go, and if you were in NSW I'd suggest you talk to Dominator, but I'm not sure who there is in VIC.

Again, not 100% sure on all this, but I hope some of it has helped.

[kemicalx]

cheers mate, though yer i'm pretty sure I understand what o-ringing entails. just not too sure on the process of laying o-rings, AFAIK it's basically a piece of either piano or copper wire layed in a receiver groove milled into the head or block, that creates a physical fire ring when compressed on by the copper headgasket.

[thechuckster]

actually it's the extra compression of the copper gasket (by the wire in the block groove and the matching receiving groove in the head) that creates a fire ring capable of holding back substantial combustion pressures... the creation of this 'ring' is highly dependant on the flatness of the head/block, correct annealing of the gasket, correct coatings applied to the gasket, correct o-ring wire, correct depth of grooves, correct torqueing of head bolts, etc...

[kemicalx]

got a few things to buy then before i pull off the head, like the ARP studs, some sealant, some solvents and i need to find out where i can get the copper gasket annealed.

but I think it should be an interesting experience, i'll take some piccies of the teardown and rebuild when i do it.

[oldcorollas]

hylomar ftw

as for annealing temp
http://www.key-to-metals.com/Article25.htm
depends on the type of copper...
interesting to note the thing about hydrogen in oxygen containing atmospheres...

and sadly, looks like you can't do it in the home oven

[terryo]

we do o-rings at work. it involves precision machining of a groove into the deck of the block. A 0.6mm steel wire is inserted and allowed to protrude about 0.2mm, and this pushes onto the gasket.

[MS-75]

Hi Ash,

I've just done this job on my 1FZ so can probably help with some info.

1. Head/block will be machined perfectly flat-(surface finish is critical as copper is no good for sealing against machine marks)

2. If the head is alloy, the O-rings go in the head, receiver grooves are machined into the block. (Alloy is soft and so the edges of the grooves would deform if machined in the head)

3. The depth of the grooves/protrusion of the o-rings is tied to the thickness of the gasket that is planned to be used. (The machine shop I used requested I get a 1.0mm gasket and did the o-rings/grooves to suit.)

4. Once you're all set, use hylomar spray on the gasket, 3 coats each side, plus a little white 3-Bond smeared around oil + water galleries.

5. Torque down, run to heat-up, torque down again, repeat 2-3 times.

I'd suggest you call Peter at Ridgecrest (www.ridgecrest.com.au), he makes the gaskets, and ask him to recommend a machine-shop to do the o-ringing.

Copper gaskets aren't the magic bullet as you'll always struggle a bit with oil/water leaks a bit, but they do have their place.

However, if you can get a MLS gasket, do that, with studs and freshly machined block and head surfaces.

Cheers
Sean

[kemicalx]

cheers mate,

My 7m had already been o-ringed by a place called Ranch Automotive in WA, but as the gasket is now leaking, i'm going to have to pull off the head, re-install everything this time clamping it down with ARP head studs instead of the factory bolts used last time. I can only presume that the necessary machine work has already been carried out, and i know the block and head have both been re-surfaced only 25,000km ago, while in my possession the engine has always run very cool at about 65-75C so i doubt anything would have warped. When i have collected up the bits i need I'll take some pictures of head and block surfaces and get your opinions on anything i'm not sure about.

[MS-75]

Have you considered jamming an HKS or similar MLS gasket in there as well as the 0-rings?

[Andrew162]

to my knowledge you only use a copper head gasket with o-rings because the MLS head gaskets already have the sealing 'lips' around each cylinder bore. I guess there wouldn't be much point.

[MS-75]

Yep, you're right-you don't need to do it as the MHG has the pressed form in it to give an o-ring like seal.

I was thinking about it recently, and I reckon it may work well as a retro-fit to an already 0-ringed motor if a MHG becomes available.

Alternately, you could remove the o-rings, but I'd use both and see how it works.

I'm planning on giving it a crack if a MHG becomes available for the 1FZ.

[kemicalx]

i would use a Cometic metal head gasket if:

a) the milled in o-ring grooves on my block and/or head won't effect the moulded in firerings in the metal headgasket
b) The block is smooth enough to ensure i don't need it to be machined again, thus requiring a tear down.
c) a metal head gasket will seal as well and be just as durable (ie. reusable) as the copper head gasket and o-rings.

[MS-75]

Have a go at these gaskets.

Quite possibly the best looking bit of gear I have seen for a long time.......

Shame you can't get them for 7m's!! (or 1FZ's for that matter)

http://www.scegaskets.com/products/ics.html

[30psi 4agte]

My two bob worth.
Its a subject im interested in as i used to use a copper head gasket but went to hks but after a major engine failure with the hks gasket i almost went back to copper with a Full on o-ring setup.

Copper coat is also good on copper gaskets.

I have herd so many different ways on how to go about o- ringing now but i have never had to do it yet so i cant speak from experience.

I
MS-75 : always thought that the o - ring sits in the block ??? I have seen numerous pics over the years and they have always had the o ring in the block ????????
I agree with your explination though as it makes total sence.

I have heard to maintain a good o-ring seal the grooves need to be cut each time the head is off.
A reciever groove doesnt always need to be used and is alot harder to setup/ align But it is the BEST way to get a good seal on big boost engines.

F1 engines used to use sulphur rings which were 3- 4 mm in height to seal their engines back in the day and that is all they used to seal the combustion chamber with.


I know of a few guys now that are using o-rings with MHG so i guess it can be done but again i dont know how they went with this setup.

Ahhhhh hold on mabe the pics i have seen with the o-rings in the block are fors a MHG setup ??? This would make sence .

I Know who to ask and get the real story from though so i keep you posted




My hks gasket gone wrong

[kemicalx]

any information on using o-rings with a MHG would be greatly appreciated, as i was always under the impression o-ringing was strictly for copper head gaskets.

[7mSupra]

Do u have to run O rings on a copper gasket? will there be a problem if you dont?

[kemicalx]

afaik if you weren't going to run o-rings with a copper gasket you're better off with something like a cometic metal head gasket, Due to the fact that copper can have difficulty sealing the oil and water galleries, without o-rings you run the risk of some nasty damage in the event of leaking.

[ed]

you must use orings on a copper h/g - the o-rings provide a fire ring seal without which the process is completely pointless.

laminated steel h/g have pressings which increase pressure and produce a fire ring seal thus dont use o rings. using o-rings with a MHG that wasnt designed to use them is a bit dumb me thinks.

please seach for this topic for further information

[7mSupra]

I got told that my copper headgasket diddnt need O ringing. So it was put together. Its done 3000 k's still running the motor in so not thrashing it.
Willl my headgasket give way soon? Or should i just replace it before anythoing happens?We used ARP head bolts and the copper spray.