Building 250WHP All Motor 3SGE Advice

[EFN]

Gday everyone,

I am on the verge of initiating a project, building an All Motor NA 3SGE FWD based on ST202 3SGE Gen3 motor. The chassis will be a FWD Corolla EE80. The purpose of this build is to realize my long term goal of competing in the 2L SFWD True Street 200 & 300m drag racing classes. Which means that I will be competing against the B Series Honda on B20 blocks & stroked Mitsubishi 4G93/4G63.
* The car competes in True Street class but the actual car itself is barely street legal (not even driven daily)

Having competed in the 1.6L classes for many years on various 4AGE platform, I have also done a short stint on 2ZZ-GE street setup race last year. So I am quite familiar with 4A-GE builds and the ZZ motor. But now I have decided that the best way forward will be to race the venerable 3SGE due to the fact that 3SGE have abundance of support and aftermarket supplies. On top of that it is already a 2.0L motor which is a huge plus. Most importantly, it does seem that the 3S motor are a lot closer to the 200-250WHP range as compared to a stroked 7AGE or ZZ motors.

Now, over the last few months I have built a list of things that I need to kick off this project. But because I have no experience whatsoever on 3SGE, I would like to hear from you guys on the few dilemmas that I have now. Before that, I will list the items that I have shortlisted as below:

Chassis: Toyota Corolla EE80 (850Kg stock trim)
Engine: Toyota Celica ST202 GEN3

Head Build:
- Professional race spec CNC porting with flowbenching
- Brian Crower Oversize Valves +1mm Intake & Exhaust
- Brian Crower Valve Springs + Titatium Retainers
- Kelford 3-195-C Cams (307/300, 12.25mm/10.65mm) OR Brian Crower BC0352 (272/272 10.1mm/10.1mm)
- Custom adjustable cam gears
- Metal Head Gasket

Engine Build:
- Stock rods (weight balanced) + ARP Bolts
- OEM Toyota Bearings
- 87mm Bore Dome Top JE Forged Custom Pistons 12.4:1 CR
- Fully balanced crank with knife edge lightening (includes lightened flywheel)

Induction:
- 47mm custom throttle bodies + matching velocity stacks

Engine Management & Ignition:
- Megasquirt MS2
- Full Mallory Ignition CDI setup (stock 3S Distributor)
- RON98 Pump Gas + Octane additives
- 440cc High Impedance injectors

* and a few minor tweaks here and there

The goal is to build a 250WHP motor (I know this is not impossible with 3S because quite a few builders have done it successfully)

Now the dilemma that I have is the engine configuration to opt for:

1. High Revving 2045cc Setup - Oversquare stroke 86X87mm. Go for Kelford high cams and rev the Jesus out of that motor all the way to 9500RPM. This is quite a straight forward setup and the default choice

2. Big Stroke 2164cc Setup - Slap in a lightened and balanced Undersquare 91X87mm 5SFE crank. Machine it down to accept 3SGE Rods and mate it with custom JE pistons. It is utterly easy and cheap to source a used Camry 5SFE crank around my place and the machining costs are relatively dirt cheap too. The obvious plus for this setup is the extra displacement it offers and bigger torque

So as you can see, I am very very inclined towards building the 5SFE crank setup simply because it is easily obtained and relatively cheap to excute. But what worries me is that will it suit the application for my need? Yes a torquey motor will undoubtedly give me the advantage on the holeshot launches. I am certain that this setup will launch a 850-900kg car effortlessly and faster. But will the rev limitation of a long stroked motor be the undoing of it? I mean drag racing is not all about launching it fast, but there is a genuine need to sustain it hard on the top end to reach the finishing line (which IMO a high revving motor can do better after halfway the track length)

So before I start commiting ideas into practice, appreciate if you guys can give me an insights on this. Thanks in advance

PS:
- Please remember that the current champions in this 2L category runs on long stroked B20 honda blocks (non VTEC)
- No, I have considered a BEAMS motor but it is way more expensive and the performance parts for the head is hard to get. I dont run VVT-i either
- This have to be a FWD setup because of local regulations for 200/300m races. So no RWD for me
- I have also considered building a stroked 2ZZ setup but the cost almost double up the amount of $ that I woudl spend on a 3S motor. Limited support

[MattC]

That all sounds fantastic, but why on earth would you use stock conrods when aftermarket forged rods are available off the shelf for relatively cheap? I bought Manley rods for my Gen3, and off memory they're about 130g per rod lighter than the factory jobs..

[EFN]

That all sounds fantastic, but why on earth would you use stock conrods when aftermarket forged rods are available off the shelf for relatively cheap? I bought Manley rods for my Gen3, and off memory they're about 130g per rod lighter than the factory jobs..

The achilles heel of rods failure are usually the bolts giving up on high revs. Not the rods itself. I am not doing any boosted application here and hence I reckon that the stock rods should do the trick provided that it is augmented with proper ARP fasteners. It has been proven that Toyota stock internals can be quite reliable - there's one guy in denmark boosting his 4AGTE with GZE stock internals (but all equipped with full ARP fasteners) scored 578WHP on the dyno and the motor survived. So on realibitiy ground I opted to push the stock rods first (prepped and balanced).

But I do agree that aftermarket rods offer lighter construction of which is a huge plus that I will consider heavily. Thanks

[MattC]

The achilles heel of rods failure are usually the bolts giving up on high revs. Not the rods itself. I am not doing any boosted application here and hence I reckon that the stock rods should do the trick provided that it is augmented with proper ARP fasteners. It has been proven that Toyota stock internals can be quite reliable

All of those are excellent points, and all very true. But you're going to be dropping so much coin on this motor as is, and you're intending to rev it to 9500, surely an extra $500 or so on decent conrods is cheap insurance?

[EFN]

Makes perfect sense.

[EFN]

All of those are excellent points, and all very true. But you're going to be dropping so much coin on this motor as is, and you're intending to rev it to 9500, surely an extra $500 or so on decent conrods is cheap insurance?

Makes perfect sense.

[knightrous]

Any specific reason your not looking at the BEAMS 3SGE motor?

[EFN]

Any specific reason your not looking at the BEAMS 3SGE motor?

I did researched extensively on BEAMS Redtop (FWD). The first issue is the price point. BEAMS Redtop are simply expensive around my area here. While I can get a GEN3 motor pretty easily and like at half the price. Secondly BEAMS Redtop, because of the VVT-i stuffs - it is extremely difficult to almost non existent to get good cams selection and if you do find them the price will be astronomical. My racing application will not use VVT-i anyway so it's pretty pointless to acquire a Redtop BEAMS.

The RWD Blacktop BEAMS from SXE10 Altezzas on the other hand is easier to get and probably cheaper too (compared to the Redtop Celicas). But they are naturally RWD and I prefer to use FWD due to the biased racing regulations that scorns on the use of RWD chassis on the racing class that I intend to race. Ideally a BEAMS Blacktop would be perfect because it offers the very best head design. But then again as with may racing application those VVT-i will be removed once high cams are installed. Only two brands offer the cams option from Japan and those are TODA or JUN - of which the price of a pair of cams is actually more than the cost of the complete engine itself - and we are not talking about the cam gears and the valve springs yet. Performaance parts for the head alone cost a small fortune.

So the use of a basic GEN3 3SGE motor is very practical on the pricing point especially if the aftermarket parts are easily available from US, AU or NZ market. Regardless of which engine I use, I will extensively rebuild the head for maximum flow anyway so may as well start with the cheapest head

[Bazda]

3S beams is a good way to go, there are many 300hp+ (crank power) cars running them.
I would think you want bigger lift cams in the 12mm range.

I would def go with aftermarket rods. Stock rods can fail when you mis shift and drop down the gears a bit too early under brakes and over rev. Thats when the OE rods are likely to fail.

You will need bigger than 47mm throttle bodies in my opinion. 50mm is what I would be running for the 300hp crank mark.
We will actually be bringing in some shaftless ITB setups next year from the UK by AT Power.

I would never use a Mega Squirt. As there is usually no local support and you have to diagnose it all your self if something isnt right.

Also we are doing CNC porting on the 4age heads at present, I have plans for the 3s beams next year.

[EFN]

3S beams is a good way to go, there are many 300hp+ (crank power) cars running them.
I would think you want bigger lift cams in the 12mm range.

I would def go with aftermarket rods. Stock rods can fail when you mis shift and drop down the gears a bit too early under brakes and over rev. Thats when the OE rods are likely to fail.

You will need bigger than 47mm throttle bodies in my opinion. 50mm is what I would be running for the 300hp crank mark.
We will actually be bringing in some shaftless ITB setups next year from the UK by AT Power.

I would never use a Mega Squirt. As there is usually no local support and you have to diagnose it all your self if something isnt right.

Also we are doing CNC porting on the 4age heads at present, I have plans for the 3s beams next year.

Thanks, I would be interested to know what cams used for those BEAMS that you mentioned. The ones that I am aware of (both TODA and JUN) are obtainable from Japan with blood curdling prices and perhaps even some lenghty wait time.

[Bazda]

Thanks, I would be interested to know what cams used for those BEAMS that you mentioned. The ones that I am aware of (both TODA and JUN) are obtainable from Japan with blood curdling prices and perhaps even some lenghty wait time.

Custom ground would be what most guys are doing.

Other than that Toda make some good lift cams here:
http://www.toda-racing.co.jp/en/product/cam/3sgs-1.html

I can source those from Japan, normally only a few weeks. Toda cams are normally around or more than the $1100nzd mark.

[Sam_Q]

Even if the rods where strong enough to handle the tensile forces which I doubt it's still a lot of recipricating weight, unlike the rotary weight it has no advantage and only decreases the response and increases the load on the internal parts such as the bearings and crankshaft.

Why would the VVT need to be removed?

Where are you located? WP?

Wouldn't building a engine with a longer stroke put you in a different class?

[EFN]

Even if the rods where strong enough to handle the tensile forces which I doubt it's still a lot of recipricating weight, unlike the rotary weight it has no advantage and only decreases the response and increases the load on the internal parts such as the bearings and crankshaft.

Why would the VVT need to be removed?

Where are you located? WP?

Wouldn't building a engine with a longer stroke put you in a different class?

Yes after much thoughts, I will use the budget on the 5S stroker to get an aftermarket rods instead. The benefit of a pre-balanced, hardened and lightened rods just simply cant be ignored if I were to push every bit of juice from the 3S motor. Thanks guys, this is why we have this type of discussion so that fresh and practical ideas can be debated positively.

VVT-i (not VVT) is normally removed in a racing application simply for the fact that all agressive racing cams neccessiate the need to dial them in manually using cam gears - this is to achieve a static linear power curve specific to the intended race application. This of course will need to be done on a dyno and done several times until the desired power band are achieved. The constantly variable nature of VVT-i is not applicable to racing application where 90% of the time the motor will be revved high just below the Rev Limiter. That's why you see built motors by TRD, TODA, HKS etc have their specs all with VVT-i removed. In the real world, VVT-i were originally intended for efficient daily driving use where the revs varies a lot. Even the most hardcore of Honda tuners will have VTEC lift mechanism removed especially in drag racing - they will just run insanely high cams and ignored low rpm power.

I am based in Malaysia.

The racing class that I will be competing regulates that the Block must be of a 2.0L. But the use of Stroker Kits/Big Bore and Long rods are permitted for as long as the block remained intact/stock. Because of this rule I could not use the taller 5SFE block (which would be perfect for Long Rods application)

[MWP]

Interesting build.
You should definitely go with a redtop, greytop or blacktop BEAMS head. They flow much better than the non BEAMS heads.
Also make sure you go with a Caldina or BEAMS block. They are cast from better material, and have a few changes over earlier blocks that adds strength.

And FYI... the 5SFE blocks are the same height as the other 3S blocks.