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Thread: 4AG headwork, now block too

  1. #76
    Olde mechanic Carport Converter oldeskewltoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Quote Originally Posted by turbo4agte
    I guess your deviating from your original plans... cause I know for sure smog laws requires the stock computer in place. Or is Oregon emissions different from California smog?
    Oregon just has to be clean..... in theory you can run a blacktop, if it passes the standard...your usually fine....
    Information is POWER... learn the facts!!

  2. #77
    ......... Carport Converter jeffro ra28's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Quote Originally Posted by turbo4agte
    Man that CNC machine looks cool... I wonder if they could do a 7 angle valve cut....

    From what i read on the NEWEN promotion CD they could fit any amount of angles in on the space of your valve seat insert. Dont quote me on how many angles exactly but its alot! More then anyone would ever want.

    The reason why you DONT want totally smooth radiused intake seat angles is because it is beleived to reduce the fuel atomisation of the port in that area.
    The sharp transition from angle to angle as the air rushes past is said to help break up the film of fuel on the intake ports into tiny droplets, improving the air fuel mix, bla bla, etc etc. Sorry i couldnt explain that better. Ill try and find a diagram.

    Heres a vid of some wet flow testing http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=163HLh74Lks

    The radiused seat insert may improve airflow, but any performance gain is soon lost because of the fuel atomising qaulities compared to angles is then lost. However on the exhaust port most people specify to use a radiused seat insert. Obviously because it improves air flow and there is no fuel film. So if you are wondering why a radiused exhaust seat and not intake. Then generally speaking that is what i beleive the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by TERRA Operative

    Who are they? I'm starting to build a head for my GZE.
    I would only recomend this if you have a LARGE budget. Obviously such technology costs. Most performance engine shops will be able accomodate just about all markets with a 5-7 angle one peice cutter. They also offer full CNC porting for most makes of performance inspired and popular engines.
    However If you are planning to break records, win highly competetive races or generally just spend alot of money. Send me a PM and i can inform you further. They will not deal direct to public.

  3. #78
    Olde mechanic Carport Converter oldeskewltoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Speaking about budget.......


    I don't really consider this a costly build. ALL of the machine work, all inhouse work, and intricate assembly is being done by Loynings. The cost is $2600 (USD) that includes bearings too.

    additional costs
    block, head, crank, rods - USED - $400
    pistons, rings, pins - new - $525
    ancillitories - new - $200 (water pump and plumbing, oil pump)
    crank pulley and flywheel - new - $415
    Canshafts - new - $650
    1SZ one piece valve buckets - new - $200
    management - new - $2700 (the only none new part will be the TPS, everything else - all sensors/switches, and wiring will be new)

    the unexpected - $250

    just shy of $8000, for a completely new engine.

    One that should produce nearly 50% more power, on the same(or nearly the same) amount of fuel. Along with the power increase, I also expect an emissions decrease.
    Last edited by oldeskewltoy; 03-08-2008 at 12:53 AM.
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  4. #79
    SC14 7AGZE Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    50% more power of stock 115 would be 172.5hp... is that the goal of this project. A lean burn ~170hp 4AGE with more torque than a 20v?

    Wow.... Talk about setting your goals high
    SC14 7AGZE build: http://beasted86.webs.com/

  5. #80
    Olde mechanic Carport Converter oldeskewltoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Quote Originally Posted by turbo4agte
    50% more power of stock 115 would be 172.5hp... is that the goal of this project. A lean burn ~170hp 4AGE with more torque than a 20v?

    Wow.... Talk about setting your goals high

    nearly 50%..... 112 in the USA = 168

    my idea was closer to 160-165 @ the crank but the rest is about right...

    A clean burn 160-165hp 16V 4AGE with more torque than a 20v
    Last edited by oldeskewltoy; 03-08-2008 at 02:14 PM.
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  6. #81
    Gary Motorsport Inc. Too Much Toyota takai's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Jeez, $8000 for a 165hp at the crank 4AGE.

    From rough calculations the initial engine for the IPRA car was making in that vicinity for about AU$2000. [in 2004 when the AUD to USD was around 0.70]

    Completely stock bottom end and head, "freshly" worn in from 120,000km in the road car, GrpA replica cams, 20v throttles with a TechnoToyTuning manifold, and a $900 Haltech E6K. No porting done whatsoever, and in this setup it dynoed with 134rwhp.
    Passed emissions testing for Australia too, which is about the same as Oregon from what i can see.
    -Chris | Garage takai - Breaking cars since 1998
    Sparky - AE86 IPRA Racer | RZN149 Hilux - Parts and Car Hauler
    I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself. - D.H.Lawrence

  7. #82
    SC14 7AGZE Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    A worn out 120K km engine cant be compared to this build. This is more a restoration project from what I've seen than race engine buildup. With the meticulous engine work, and part selection along with the amount of money put into the AZ6 conversion, it seems he's been trying to lightly modify the car without upsetting the balance too much. And also do it once and do it right... not just throw parts together carelessly.

    I applaud the effort, and I think I understand what he's after.

    But I have to say if he's able to make 160hp & over 120ft/lbs with just cams, half a point in compression, and a standalone... he has affectively "worked magic" on the 4AGE.
    SC14 7AGZE build: http://beasted86.webs.com/

  8. #83
    Gary Motorsport Inc. Too Much Toyota takai's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Thats the thing, he isnt working magic at all, you can run 160hp 120ft/lbs with just cams and a standalone. Ive done it, with a worn engine. Its not rocket surgery.

    This type of build is more suited to a good 200hp 9000rpm screamer.
    -Chris | Garage takai - Breaking cars since 1998
    Sparky - AE86 IPRA Racer | RZN149 Hilux - Parts and Car Hauler
    I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself. - D.H.Lawrence

  9. #84
    DIY Bloodline Domestic Engineer Talasas's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    He makes a good point...
    "In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move." -HHGG

  10. #85
    SC14 7AGZE Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    I really dont want to take this off-topic, but I just dont believe anyone can make over 40hp and 20ft/lbs gain on a 1.6 NA engine with just cams and a standalone. Sorry... its likely an inflated dyno readout.
    SC14 7AGZE build: http://beasted86.webs.com/

  11. #86
    Olde mechanic Carport Converter oldeskewltoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    $8000 is a TOTAL price... everything... all new. It should be capable of running for 100k+ miles

    The current engine in my car cost me almost $4000 back in 2002, and that was with no management upgrade.

    cams - $550
    cam pulleys - $200
    gaskets - $250
    ancillitories - $160
    machine work - $1400
    bearings - $200
    pistons - $250
    rings - $120
    injectors $320
    flywheel - $200
    T belt/bearing - $80
    20V short block - 1/2 used set of 4 Toyo T1S tires in 205/50/15 ($150~??)

    It has amassed over 60k on it with the ONLY problem being a leaky rear main seal(which has been replaced). This engine has remained ultra reliable starting all the time with 1 to 2 seconds of cranking at the most, even when cold.

    Oregon emissions standard for the 1987 AE86 is under 1% CO, and under 220ppm HC.


    So this time the machine work is costing more(because I'm having a highly experienced company do it instead of the local "performance" shop), most of the parts are about 15-20% more, and I'm putting in a near state of the art(so I've been told) engine management system.

    Could I have done this for less.... probably... The experience of having specialists build an engine, and management system to the specifications I have chosen is a rush.

    Being very honest... I'm not a Clarkson(buying a new Ford GT), or a Hammond(buying a new Morgan), so I'm "settling" for a well massaged AE86 built to my specifications, besides... in ten years when Clarksons and Hammonds cars are POS, my AE86 will still be cranking the revs to the moon..............
    Information is POWER... learn the facts!!

  12. #87
    Gary Motorsport Inc. Too Much Toyota takai's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Quote Originally Posted by turbo4agte
    I really dont want to take this off-topic, but I just dont believe anyone can make over 40hp and 20ft/lbs gain on a 1.6 NA engine with just cams and a standalone. Sorry... its likely an inflated dyno readout.
    I doubt that, its read around 135ish rwhp on four different dynos now on different days, from tuning right through to a couple of rock up and dyno shoot out type of deals.

    The lap times indicate around that much power as well. Dont get pissy, but 40hp is childs play. Realistically smallport 4AGs come from factory with 130hp ish, of which about 20-25% is lost through the drivetrain.

    The emissions standard in Oregon is pretty much the same as the ACT where i got mine done, <1% and 200ppm.

    Edit: to clarify, the dynos it has done were 134rwhp at tuning, 138rwhp at a local workshop shootout, 131rwhp at yet another workshop with the new intake plenum on it, 139rwhp to tweak for the new plenum, and 133rwhp before my final race where i popped the headgasket due to getting stuck in pit lane behind another car which had run out of fuel and it overheated. The next day it pulled a 126rwhp still with the BHG but fresh oil.

    As for reliability it has been pretty flawless, apart from some shonky soldering skills by yours truely at the start (CAS feed) and the aforementioned BHG which was unavoidable. Its a bit crankier on start because there is no cold start injector, and no coolant based compensation that low in the map. There isnt any MAP sensing either, just TPS.
    Last edited by takai; 05-08-2008 at 02:23 PM.
    -Chris | Garage takai - Breaking cars since 1998
    Sparky - AE86 IPRA Racer | RZN149 Hilux - Parts and Car Hauler
    I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself. - D.H.Lawrence

  13. #88
    Junior Member Grease Monkey Schmitt's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Slightly off topic.
    FWIW my completely standard bigport 4a with just a microtech ecu made 107hp at the wheels. And that has also been confirmed on four different dynos, 1 of which was at the dyno day at SAS. It was also down on compression. So with a decent condition motor and a set of cams i think 135hp is quite achievable.

    Now Back on topic:
    Congrats on the build. I am sure you will love it and it will be even more special seeing as you have put in so much time and effort.

    Thanks
    Ben
    .
    Founding member of SPOOT RACING
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    Schmitts 4AGE TA22

  14. #89
    ......... Carport Converter jeffro ra28's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    I would also like to backup takai's statement.
    Something as simple as a camshaft can make huge changes to engine output on an otherwise stock engine, depending on circumstances ofcourse.

    Heck, i have built a few class restricted holden 253's totally stock bar camshaft. These engines where fully inspected and sealed by an approved engine sealer inspector. The only thing we could do is blueprint them and use watever camshaft profile we wanted with appropriate valve springs provided it used stock lifters. We were getting 295 HP at flyhweel. The same motor straight out of holden factory was 190hp on the same dyno.

    Sorry for bringing the thread down to holden's level but i had to express the point.

  15. #90
    Gary Motorsport Inc. Too Much Toyota takai's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AG headwork, now block too

    Dont mistake what im saying, the headwork looks pretty good, and im sure it will be a well built engine. But 160hp is falling FAR short of what its capable of.
    -Chris | Garage takai - Breaking cars since 1998
    Sparky - AE86 IPRA Racer | RZN149 Hilux - Parts and Car Hauler
    I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself. - D.H.Lawrence

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