3SGE Powered Tarmac Rally Car?

[GT4WRC]

Greetings one and all.

I am currently in the throws of building a tarmac rally car. Not an obvious choice, but am using a Rover 220 GTi shell...

http://www.220gti.co.nz/images/Cage%209.JPG

...but have ditched the stock 16v turbo motor in favour of a 3SGE. At this stage, I have a base 3S motor which is currently being mated to the Rover gearbox with a custom adapter plate...

http://www.220gti.co.nz/images/IMG_3618.JPG

http://www.220gti.co.nz/images/IMG_3621.JPG

I have a fair idea of how I would like to mod the engine which, at the moment, is a Gen II block with a Gen IV head from a Caldina GT-T. I am aiming for around the 230bhp @ flywheel mark which will see over 200 ponies at the wheels thanks to the Quaife straight cut close ratio gearset. Maybe a rev limit around 8 - 9000 to prevent the crank from disintergrating :eek:

My thoughts are...

Fully gas flowed head
3 angle cut valves
Stronger valve springs
Shimless cam buckets
Wild cams
Vernier timing wheels
4AGE Blacktop throttle bodies
Aftermarket injectors
Fully enclosed induction system
4 - 1 tubular exhaust manifold
Side exit exhaust
Metal head gasket
0.5mm oversized forged pistons
Around 12:1 compression ratio
Forged rods
Fully balanced crank
TRD shells
ARP head studs etc
Lightweigh flywheel
Twin plate clutch (if it'll fit in the bellhousing)
Remote oil filter
Air cooled oil, cooler (due to sump guard preventing airflow over sump)
ECU - Link, Motec, Autronic?


Thoughts, comments etc on the engine build would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Gary

[thechuckster]

will 4AGE Blacktop throttle bodies be big enough?

seeing as a smooth idle isn't manditory, mount the injectors up the runner away from the head (RX7 style) to improve torque? you're making a custom induction system so injector placing is up to you.

edit: nearly forgot - crazy conversion!! would be great if Australian rallying let you modify cars like you folk in NZ can. Is a shame you can't convert the rover to 4wd and use ST185 or 205 suspension/transmission? ... priced a SADEV box as per the super2000 class?

[takai]

Also, are you sure that the 3S to Rover combination is legal, i cant think of many options which you could use that one under. Khanas maybe.

edit: oh i see you are in NZ.

[mullett]

First off: That's awesome. I can't think of much that you haven't thought of, but with that kind of build, I think you might be a bit conservative with your power hopes. Also, I'd consider drysump, electric waterpump etc... There's a B16A built for off-road racing making 240hp, and that's a 1600 :eek: While that's pretty wild, you've also got another 400cc to play with...so maybe 250hp or so is acheivable? or more...

Eitherway. Love your work, that's brilliant.

RM.

[GT4WRC]

Thanks for the feedback. :)

Varying thoughts on the size of ITBs to go for, but have spoken to a couple of local 'experts' on this subject and they agree that 45 - 47mm would be the correct size to go (The blacktop ones can be bored out to 47mm). Anything bigger may well have a negative effect. Idea would be for a custom rail with different injectors so they aren't mounted in the head. Just a simple case of getting the stock holes filled by the head man.

Drysump would be nice, but would put the build cost right up - something that I'm trying (and often failing) to keep at a sensible level :( Not mentioned in my list, but a Davies Craig EWP with a controller is going to be used. Will gut the stock water pump and ditch the thermostat. Water pipes/hoses will be at an absolute minimum. One to the rad and one back from the rad. Simple as :D

As for being conservative, I'd rather aim for an acheivable power level than start spewing bull**** figures in a pathetic attempt to sound cool. If I reach the 230 level I'll be happy. I view anything above that as an added bonus. That way, I won't be disappointed :)
Gary

[mullett]

Hahaha, I agree with you totally. Better to have real power than paper power :D Also, with the aim you have for power, maybe some slightly less peaky cams would still give you the power, and more torque...But hey, this thing is going to fly. Got any idea of an overall weight yet?

RM.

[GT4WRC]

I'm hoping for around 1000kg all up. Will be utilising a lot of carbon fibre panels (such as roof, bonnet, tailgate, door skins etc) with fibreglass bumpers and lexan glazing.
Gary

[rx3ip]

i just built a 3sge for track ..this engine doesn't like to see close to 8500 rpm as no3 rod will let go because the crank balance wouldn't take it , to be able to rev over 8500 rpm you need solid crank ( about $2500 ) ... most race 3sge engine in aust rev less than 8500 rpm ..
with flowed head & good bits & still have plenty of torque down low , you will be looking at 230-240 real hp , this is what i get with 50mm TB & motec with super 98
you can have more top end hp with wild cams but will lack bottom tq that you need for rally cars
twin plate not really needed for this power

[WDE_BDY]

Gary, should have at least put this link in so they can see the rest of the car.

http://www.220gti.co.nz/race%20car%20preparation.htm

[Classique71]

Ot gary but id like to chat with you when im over re carbon panelling - might be something we might want to look at while over there for other toyota type applications ;)

[rx3ip]

gt4wrc
i looked at your car profile , it is awesome ... how long do you think to get the car ready to race ? and must cost heaps ... i will be in auckland in 2 weeks time , good luck with the project

[Celica RA45]

just over reved mine yesterday 9100 rpm ,and the cranks are fine just need to be on a diet and loose 2.5 kilos then they will spin up ok ,also longer rods will help as well
also you have a gen 3 cyl head not a beams turbo head as you told me it came off a caldina late model that head has a disy port so its not the same as 5bobs head

[GT4WRC]

No dizzy - has individual coil packs with a crank angle sensor, so is a Gen IV head. Also has markedly different inlet ports to the Gen III head.

I'd much rather have a custom crank made than modify the stock one TBH. It may well be okay, but for my own peace of mind I wouldn't be happy modding the stock one in case it weakens it.

Assume increasing the rod length is to increase the TDC time increasing power and due to less throw, allows a shoter skirted piston to eb used?
Gary

[Celica RA45]

also slows the piston speed so you could rev it to 8800 rpm easy as well go to the trd site and look under the altezza 3sge there rods are 146mm long compared to 138mm for the std rod ,also if the crank is done right you wontr have a problem with the crank weakening as you put it

[GT4WRC]

Was think of a 10k + rev limit :D
Gary

[Celica RA45]

well put a rotory in it then that should go to 10000 ok, the 3sge will shit it self ,goodcrank or not ,good block or not. also at hand grenade revs dry sump might help it to last 30min at tops at that revs ,ps wheres the big kaboom

[GT4WRC]

The well known and respected Toyota tuning guru, Lynn Rogers told me a while back (while I was discussing 3SGTE mods) that the touring car 3S motors were made to rev to around 12,000rpm :eek:


Anyway, at this stage, I'm just gathering ideas and thoughts before I decide 100% on what route to take. Always good to listen to all sides of a discussion IMHO. And like Toyota, I always like to over-engineer something I build. :o
Gary

[Crazyracer]

Talk to Neil Fraser about 3SGE mods and rev limits.

From memory I think he said about 8,000 was about as far as you wanted to go on a standard bottom end, and 9000 on a worked lightened and balanced one.

I don't know if its too relevant to talk about what the touring car guys did. Their budgets were beyond the imagination of us mere mortals.

[buck naked]

Not to take anything away from what you're doing; it's not like you're looking for advice =)

But wouldn't an ST162 be a better candidate for an FWD 3S-GE tarmac car? It'd be lighter and require less custom work than the swap into the Rover.

[GT4WRC]

I'm more than happy for people to offer advice :D

Fair point. However, the Rover was my everyday car before I bought my GT-Four so it made sense to simply modify that. Fitting a 3S is actually quite an easy task with minimal fabriaction required. The Rover was also rust free - finding a 162 like that would have been quite a task.
Gary

[takai]

One option to look at for down throttle injection is the SR20 fuel rail. Its quite easy to adapt, and from memory it has about the right spacing for the 3S.

[buck naked]

I'm more than happy for people to offer advice :D

Fair point. However, the Rover was my everyday car before I bought my GT-Four so it made sense to simply modify that. Fitting a 3S is actually quite an easy task with minimal fabriaction required. The Rover was also rust free - finding a 162 like that would have been quite a task.
Gary
That's cool; the originality is nice =)

I've seen quite a few ST162's and none have had much trouble with rust. My 1986 model doesn't have any anywhere on the body, unlike similar age twin cam Corollas, which are all bogged up around the petrol cap and hatch.

[Crazyracer]

Some 50mm throttle bodies that might be a better size to make the kind of power your seeking.

Checkout the following link...

http://www.techmasters.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1088