Alternatives for Altezza IS200

[edgar_raphael]

Hi, I want to find out, of the three engines, 3S-GTE , IJZ-GTE (MKII) and 2JZ-GTE, which would be more sensible to be converted into an IS200?

I have seen 3S-GTE conversion done in Malaysia, 1JZ-GTE done in Japan and 2JZ-GTE in Japan as well as the States, but as far as I am concerned, the 3S-GTE would be the cheapest of all, but I would like to know what gearbox should be used if the 3S-GTE conversion was chosen, since the most reliable and the most powerful of stock 3S-GTE comes from the Celica ST185/205 GT4 versions with horizontal layout mounting.

The 1JZ-GTE will certainly opened up a whole new challenge and excitement but why not choose 2JZ-GTE with the extra 500cc and the size does not differ very much, but I would assume the 2JZ-GTE will be very costly, however I am concerned if the 6-speed gearbox off the 2JZ-GTE will get into the conversion.

Can anyone of you here with experiences in Altezza conversion please share your experiences and recommendations?

[Darren]

I'm not sure of the laws in SA, but if they are anything like NSW be aware that the engine must be the same age or newer than the car it's going into. Unless of course you can pull a swifty on the registering authority.

There is a nice IS200 with a 1JZ-GTE in the car park here at work owned by one of the guys off this forum, I'll let him chime in.

Darren.

[urantia]

Is that koffee?

Personally i'd go with what greame (daliesh? sorry spelling) did with his altezza, 1jz-vvti with getrag 6 speed. He has all the info you'd need to pull the conversion off. 2jz would be nice too.

This combination is ultimatly what i'm after. luxury and performance.

[Nark]

Why just those three engines?

You could drop in the 3S-GE from an Altezza/RS200 (an IS200 is not an Altezza).
Or you could swap in the 1UZ-FE or 3UZ-FE?

[edgar_raphael]

Those 3 engines - reliable turbo-charged engines. 3S-GE is good, but it is even better with 3S-GTE don't you think considering the power and the torque available.

The Altezza is known in most countries in Asian and South East Asian markets but they are being re-badged for the Australian market under IS200. I am not sure how true this extends since I just came to Australia not too long ago, but all of them are badged under Lexus Altezza in the Asian countries.

I am very keen to find out more about the 1JZ conversion into the IS200, seems to be the most common practice in Australia as opposed to putting in the monsterous 2JZ-GTE plant, but the 3S-GTE still offers a better weight distribution don't you guys think?

[Dimitri]

as mentioned you need to check whether or not even the latest st205 type 3sgte is potentially legal to have fitted a local gxe10. as stated this newest version of the 3sgte still pre dates even the earliest gxe10.

that stated there is a forum user here who has a 1jzgte fitted to his gxe10, it is a non vvt type, so it would be fair to assume his engine is older than his car. so obviously there are way around it.

all that being stated if i could afford a gxe10 thats the engine i'd want (st205 3sgte).

the obvious gearboxs to accompany that engine in rwd format are either the aisin 6 speed from the JDM RS200 (which came with a gen 5 beams 3sge as factory) or preferably a later model W58 with a bellhousing from an sa63 celica or 3Y powered lite ace van. the later is more desireable as it postions the starter on the drivers side away from the turbo, but does need to be modified to fit a 3s bellhousing patern, one of the top bolt holes needs moving, not terribly dificult.

there is wealth of imformation on converting a 3sgte to rwd on the old forums and pribably up here too. to say the least it is definately not "easy" or "straight forward".

even regular motoring journalists do seem to think the larger 2j as fatory fitted to the later IS300s do upset the balance. not having driven either i cant really comment, but i personally just prefer the idea of the 3sgt, but thats just my personal preferance. there is no mistaking the 1j/2j's are incredible engines.

[Dimitri]

oh, and im not convinced a 3sgte is going to end up cheaper either. ofcourse it all depends on alot of things but if youre paying an un-initiated workshop to do a rwd'd gen 3 3s in a gxe10 is going to cost big.

another thing i should note is having seen a gen5 3s up close, you will not be able to use the engine mounts from this motor on a gen 3 even if you could aquire them.

also the sump on a gen 5 is much further forward than a gen 3 and will need MASSIVE modification to sit in the same place as a gen5 does from factory. the sump is offset forward of the engine a good 75mm.

[Nark]

Those 3 engines - reliable turbo-charged engines. 3S-GE is good, but it is even better with 3S-GTE don't you think considering the power and the torque available.I suggested the 3S-GE because it already comes in the RS200 so it's a MUCH simpler swap than any of the other engines (short of a 1G-GTE which you can't legally do anyway). 157kW is nothing to sneeze at. Sure the torque will be missing, but it is a much simpler swap...

even regular motoring journalists do seem to think the larger 2j as fatory fitted to the later IS300s do upset the balance. not having driven either i cant really commentI've driven both and I can definately say that the IS300 is unbalanced. Jumping out of the IS200 and into the IS300, I didn't like it one bit.

oh, and im not convinced a 3sgte is going to end up cheaper either. ofcourse it all depends on alot of things but if youre paying an un-initiated workshop to do a rwd'd gen 3 3s in a gxe10 is going to cost big.I reckon it might end up being more expensive than either of the JZ engines.

[edgar_raphael]

Thanks for the replies guys, and after going through the gearbox issues, I really think the biggest amount of money would be spent here, so it is not very encouraging for me to think further.

Now, if the JZ engines were in plan, do you think the gearbox from the halfcut would fit without major modifications?

Is it even possible to swap the entire 4wd gearbox from the 3S-GTE into the car? Sounds like troubles but could be a whole lot of fun driving a 4wd IS200 :D

[Nark]

Is it even possible to swap the entire 4wd gearbox from the 3S-GTE into the car? Sounds like troubles but could be a whole lot of fun driving a 4wd IS200 :D
Anything can fit with enough money.

You'd totally ruin the chassis balance of the IS200 though.

As for gearboxes, the R154 has been done successfully by someone who put a VVTi 1JZ-GTE into their IS200. Can't remember his username though. :(
Also, if you go for a UZ engine, there are W58 bellhousings for them available.
And the 2JZ has a W58 bellhousing as well (out of the N/A JZA80s).

[CrUZida]

IS430 ........... Do It........... :D

[Dimitri]

if i had one id be doing power fc'd tdo6/gtrs'd, V mount coolered gen3 3sgte, 3y bellhousing and albins close ratio'd w58.

[mullett]

The 1UZ mentioned earlier isn't such a stupid idea. 260hp in standard tune, they weigh LESS than the 3SGTE, are nearly the same length, dirt cheap, and gearboxes aren't hard to come by. Also there's a whole heap of NA mods to get them close to the 400hp mark. As long as you've got the width to fit the engine in.

RM.

[5000gt]

if they can fit a 3uz in one, i'm sure the 1uz would fit also, that being said without knowing fully how much work was involved. But still good to know it can be done.

[rokusan]

Thanks for the replies guys, and after going through the gearbox issues, I really think the biggest amount of money would be spent here, so it is not very encouraging for me to think further.


actually that is the easy bit like dimitri said there are a couple of good ways of doing the rwd gearbox, but don't forget you will need a suitable flywheel to match the crank pattern.
I found the greatest bit of cost and messing around was in making the rwd manifolds and cooling routing. and then theres the old 3sgte missing an engine mount thing.

your best bet would be taniguchi style with a jap beams ge' and a bolt on turbo kit

[JustCallMeOrlando]

they weigh LESS than the 3SGTE
I agree with your other points but this is wrong. The 1UZ weighs around the 175kg mark, which is the same as a 1GGTE, and there is no way a 3S weighs the same :P

[Joshstix]

Just wait for some people in Japan to start crashing IS350's and get a 2GR-FSE for it. They are a nice engine, 310hp all alloy V6.

[Draven]

Just wait for some people in Japan to start crashing IS350's and get a 2GR-FSE for it. They are a nice engine, 310hp all alloy V6.

I love that mentality :P

[ViPeR_NiPPleX]

Just wait for some people in Japan to start crashing IS350's and get a 2GR-FSE for it. They are a nice engine, 310hp all alloy V6.

It's got my vote :)

[Koffee-Black]

The reason I went 1j, is purley cheaper, easy to get parts, and not as brutal as a 2j. The 2J is too strong for t he driveline in the IS200, the stock LSD Altezza diff, was the only thing that survived, after a worn clutch, 2 sets of turbos, an engine and a w58 gearbox.

Engineer was fine with it too! I really miss it, and the Supra TT I have now, is nothing compared to it, it terms ofhandling and speed (Yet heheh)

[WindeX]

Thread revival...

Anyone know if the 1UZFE will fit in width wise? Because that sounds like a very nice ride to me, a IS200 with the power it should have had.

[Lambolica]

It's tight but not impossible....

http://bedellracing.home.comcast.net/v8swap/sportcross11.jpg

http://bedellracing.home.comcast.net/v8swap/sportcross38.jpg

http://bedellracing.home.comcast.net/v8swap/sportcross37.jpg

[CrUZida]

Cept shot 2 and 3 there had the 2JZ in the pic...

[horse]

here's the link :)

http://bedellracing.home.comcast.net/v8swap/

[Lambolica]

Oppsy My bad.... All fixed.

[wagonist]

To clear up some mistakes made earlier (if anyone's still reading this thread):
The ST205 is not the most powerful 3S-GTE, the ST215 Caldina had 195kW & the ST246 Caldina had 206kW.

Also, the ST205 gearbox won't fit an IS/Altezza as its made for an east-west engine layout, the IS is north-south.
You can get an Altezza Gita (wagon) 2JZ-GE 4wd 5spd auto

[wagonist]

oh yeah, the Gen IV onwards 3S-GTEs from these Caldinas should be new enough for legality.
ST215 is 97-02, ST246 is 02-
Good luck finding these motors though.
Also, both of these are east-west, so inlet & exhaust manifolds will most likely need mods to fit north-south

[Stefan]

How about an ecotec V6?



;)

[sebatron]

ls1 ftw.

i'd go the 1uz just for something quite unexpected.

[Mos]

Hi,

For NSW (or so it was not so long ago) the RTA website (at the time when I looked at it) said NOWHERE that it's illegal to put an older engine in a younger car - it just said it's not a good idea. Basically if the engine passes emissions for the younger car all is fine - hence it's a better idea to get a younger engine as the chance of passing is much higher.

From a practical perspective, if a 1992 1UZ-FE passes 2002 year emissions, then a 95 or so 1UZ-FE should have no problems passing the same emissions, depending on the year of your IS200 (mine is 2000, so I didn't care much past that date :p).

From another practical side, some engineers will insist the engine must be newer, and others will be happy as long as it passes emissions. An engineer has to be comfortable with the swap you're doing so you just have to find the right one. One engineer's first (and only) comment was "yeah, it's fine, car's heavy enough" :) Only after questioning emissions he clarified he couldn't see how a mid 90s japanese 1UZ would not be able to pass current emissions provided everything is fine with it and it has all the japanese emission gear.

If you remember Andrew's Rav4 with the gen3 3SGTE, the car was a 99, the engine was 95ish, fully engineered in NSW.


In terms of ideal engine for the IS200, there is only one correct answer ;) (Okay, maybe a few, but they are all in the UZ family :p)

If you want to go turbo, I don't think it would take too much convincing that a TT 1UZ would be the most ideal engine. Weight nicely back, not upsetting the handling, plenty of power potential. (Pre-VVTi engine more suitable due to stronger bottom end, and conveniently cheaper).

If you want to go with a factory turbo engine, both the 1JZ and 2JZ in their many variants will affect the handling compared to a shorter engine - whether that really is a practical concern is up to the individual as I'm sure Koffee or Graham don't complain about handling :p (Just don't ask Nark ;p)
There's plenty of experience around for those swaps.

A 3S-GTE, while sounding easy is likely to be as much of a PITA as in any other RWD setup. The amount of fabrication required will make things like engine mounts feel like a walk in the park, so a factory S engine doesn't really help much (from my POV anyway - have done research for a RWD 3S-GTE project in the past). The benefit of a factory S gearbox being available is erased by the fact that most people chasing power are likely to break it (and it won't be easy to find in the first place).

For atmo, you probably wouldn't bother with a 2JZ-GE - just buy an IS300 - and certainly not a 1JZ-GE.
A 3S-GE only really makes sense if you are able to find a complete SXE10 half cut, and swap *everything*, looms and all, to make it run like factory with all factory accessories working correctly (little effort required). An engine package may plug in electrically, but you're on your own if things don't work easily (if you get different year models, things like portions of the cluster might not work).

The UZs are another obvious option, with (practically speaking) the most power and torque available from an atmo engine and a bonus that no one will accuse you of upsetting the weight balance :)

The pre-vvti 1UZ's, while not ideal in the strictest sense, are still a damn fine engine that will power along an IS200 without any problems whatsoever. It will give you plenty of improvement over the 1G without the (relative) hassle associated with turbos. Wiring is also easy.

The VVTi 1UZs would be a better choice but their availability and cost, at least at the moment, makes them more of a wish than an alternative. Wiring is also expected to be more of a biatch than pretty much all the other engines.

The 3UZ, while perhaps most ideal, is only surpassed by the 2GR-FSE in availability (and wiring would also be in total control honey).

The 2GR-FSE, (to appease Josh :p) would be lush. Integrating it would be an absolute nightmare! To maintain factory management one would probably have to start with a whole donor car. To keep all the benefits of that engine one thing you'd need is the however many thousand PSI of fuel pressure to run the direct injection. Is aftermarket management an option?


My personal preference is the 1UZ for many reasons (which I'm struggling to convey succinctly in this post). In summary, I feel it's the best compromise of power and handling while maintaining driveability and reliability, without limiting one's thirst for either of the first two if one gets bored. :)

Thoughts anyone?

Mos.

[Mos]

How about an ecotec V6?
;) ls1 ftw.
You two should be banned from driving toyotas ;)

FWIW Brad Bedell (Yellow IS300->IS400) considered an LS7 engine but chose the 1UZ due to potential customers :) (see my.is forums)

Mos.

[Vios-GT_07]

IS 430 anyone??

[Mos]

IS 430 anyone??
Would be awesome, but not cost effective - although I haven't priced one up myself others have and I suspect they cried.
Mos.

[Vios-GT_07]

Would be awesome, but not cost effective - although I haven't priced one up myself others have and I suspect they cried.
Mos.

they did release the IS 430 in japan if it's not a very rare model to have.. but yea i mean the IS430 out of factory.. which makes this conversion pointless?

[horse]

or you can stick with the same chassis but transplant a 3UZ-FE instead, though it'd be damn hard to find, not to mention damn expensive :(

[o_man_ra23]

If your handy with fabrication, 3SGTE FTW!!

Looking at the 1UZ transplant photos just makes me cringe at the lack of room between the heads and the strut towers. Gearbox is easy, $650 will get you a W58 with Y bellhousing, easy mod on the stray hole. Add a 1 in front and you should get an Altezza S series 6 cogger. Caldina 3SGTE sounds good, but availability could be another story. ST205 Gen 3 sounds good also, but is missing a rib off the block due to the 4WD box.

Something I want to play with later on is a sequential dual turbo Beams dual VVTLi motor :D

Completely custom engine, only should be attempted by serious do it yourselfers (with some ability to do custom research and design work), but the outcome would be a turbo motor with a torque curve that looks like ayers rock, starting at about idle, and moving up past the 8000rpm mark... doesnt matter what speed your doing or what gear your in... you have torque on tap!! If anyone beats me to doing this engine conversion, i will be a very seriously dissapointed MOFO, so dont do it till after i have!!

I guess what i am trying to do is push onto you my bias toward the 3SGTE engine (4 cyls is a perfect number IMHO) due to its compactish size, and amazing upgradability.

Cheers, Oman.

[Dimitri]

i havent re read so maybe it wasnt me you were refering too, but i dont think i said the gen3 3s was the most powerfull, only the the most desireable to me. i wasnt actually aware of the later caldina engines before posting though.

if you describe the later caldina engines as gen 4, does that mean they are VVTi? if this is the case personally i dont see the point in the complexity.

i wasnt really trying to argue that a 3sgt would be the best engine either, but a gen 3 would be my pick. the engine itself just has the best/my prefered blend/level of technology. and for me the car needs to be lighter and become more sporty/less luxury focused, not just powered up.

[wagonist]

i havent re read so maybe it wasnt me you were refering too, but i dont think i said the gen3 3s was the most powerfull, only the the most desireable to me. i wasnt actually aware of the later caldina engines before posting though.

if you describe the later caldina engines as gen 4, does that mean they are VVTi? if this is the case personally i dont see the point in the complexity.

i wasnt really trying to argue that a 3sgt would be the best engine either, but a gen 3 would be my pick. the engine itself just has the best/my prefered blend/level of technology. and for me the car needs to be lighter and become more sporty/less luxury focused, not just powered up.
If you're talking about my post, I was actually replying to the original poster's point about the ST205 being the most powerful/best/reliable.
Mos might be able to correct this one, but I believe the 1UZ is actually lighter than a 3S because of the alloy block (but the weight could possibly be slighter further back though)

The only VVT(L)i 3S is the NA version in the Altezza.
I kind of doubt that the 3S-GTE will be in the next Caldina. its body shape will run out in a year or so, & the US version, the Matrix, has the 2ZZ-GE in it.

[JustCallMeOrlando]

they did release the IS 430 in japan if it's not a very rare model to have.. but yea i mean the IS430 out of factory.. which makes this conversion pointless?
What are you talking about? There is no such factory backed model as an IS430. TTE in Europe, and Rod Millen in the US both built one each, but they were never an actual model.

[Dimitri]

If you're talking about my post, I was actually replying to the original poster's point about the ST205 being the most powerful/best/reliable.
Mos might be able to correct this one, but I believe the 1UZ is actually lighter than a 3S because of the alloy block (but the weight could possibly be slighter further back though)

The only VVT(L)i 3S is the NA version in the Altezza.
I kind of doubt that the 3S-GTE will be in the next Caldina. its body shape will run out in a year or so, & the US version, the Matrix, has the 2ZZ-GE in it.

yeah thought you were replying to me.

there is no variable lift on any 3s. gen 4 is single constantly varying timing. gen 5 is dual, but no varying lift.

anyway gen 3 FTW

[Mos]

Mos might be able to correct this one, but I believe the 1UZ is actually lighter than a 3S because of the alloy block (but the weight could possibly be slighter further back though)
I don't know the weights for sure - I tell you what, if someone can either lend me a 200kg hanging scale or tell me where to hire/buy one, I'll weigh the 3S-GTE that's in the shed, and the 1UZ when it arrives :p
(But I doubt the 1UZ is lighter than 4 cylinder given it's rumoured to be of similar weight to a 1G-GTE)
In terms of getting the weight back, I curious what could cause a 4 banger to *have to* sit further forward than a V8 - if anything, the V8 has more restrictions on placement... I wouldn't expect their respective centres of mass to be far apart along their axes.. anyone?
The only VVT(L)i 3S is the NA version in the Altezza.
SXE10 3S-GE not L, just VVTi, albeit dual. The only VVTi-L engine that I'm aware of is the 2ZZ-GE.
Mos.

[Nark]

What are you talking about? There is no such factory backed model as an IS430. TTE in Europe, and Rod Millen in the US both built one each, but they were never an actual model.
I think he was regurgitating something that someone's brother's cousin's dog read on the Internet. :D

[CrUZida]

(But I doubt the 1UZ is lighter than 4 cylinder given it's rumoured to be of similar weight to a 1G-GTE)
1UZ will be within 10kg (on the heavier side) of a 1GGTE.
Roughly 175kg.

1UZ is also only 2.5-3" shorter than an M

[Vios-GT_07]

What are you talking about? There is no such factory backed model as an IS430. TTE in Europe, and Rod Millen in the US both built one each, but they were never an actual model.

hm.. u're right... sorry my bad..

was thinking along the lines of the GS430 which is available in Lexus showrooms..

[o_man_ra23]

hm.. u're right... sorry my bad..

was thinking along the lines of the GS430 which is available in Lexus showrooms..

Now theres a drool mobile. Those GS430s are sex on wheels. Mind you, they also make an LS430 which is the bigger brother of the now IS250

Cheers, Owen

[wagonist]

In terms of getting the weight back, I curious what could cause a 4 banger to *have to* sit further forward than a V8 - if anything, the V8 has more restrictions on placement... I wouldn't expect their respective centres of mass to be far apart along their axes.. anyone?
Sorry, I was thinking when they replace the 2J in the Supra with a 3S, the V8 would be similar centre of balance to the I4.

SXE10 3S-GE not L, just VVTi, albeit dual. The only VVTi-L engine that I'm aware of is the 2ZZ-GE.
Mos.
Learnt something new today. I thought to get that amount of grunt out of it, that the setup would've been similar to the Honda S2000.

[Vios-GT_07]

Now theres a drool mobile. Those GS430s are sex on wheels. Mind you, they also make an LS430 which is the bigger brother of the now IS250

Cheers, Owen

if i'm not mistaken the LS430 has 2 series or different models for different markets. My uncle imported his from Singapore to be used where i'm from, and i've compared that with the LS430 available in showrooms here and in Brunei (where i'm from). and i've noticed my uncle's LS is short by one gear.

Having said that, the LS430 in all its 2 tons of glory can accelerate from 0 to 100 in 6 seconds flat and whooping a mildly tuned S-15. However, i drag against a Mercedes SEL500 (those bulletproof tanks thing) and was a complete loss.. almost 1.5 seconds off the quartermile.. grrr.. then again the LS430 has more buttons everywhere than a UFO..

[o_man_ra23]

Yes, the LS430 is a fast machine. The cruise control in them is allowed to use up to 1/8th of a G in acceleration, and close to that for deceleration. It can also control the brakes if on a steep decline. Now, for those who dont know how fast 1/8th of a G will accelerate you, an E49 chrysler charger, with the most bombed up 4.3L straight six available at the time could reach a maximum acceleration of 1/8th of a G... and they were no slow coach car. So in short, the LS430 in cruise mode (set pretty high obviously) can out-accelerate an E49 racing Charger.

Makes you want a 3UZ-FE dont it??

Cheers, Owen

[sebatron]

1/8th of a G is a lot?

[CrUZida]

Skyline GTR pulls 1/2G under acceleration.

So no, 1/8th isn't a lot.

[Vios-GT_07]

ya well he's pointing out 1/8 G in CRUISE mode i.e. computer controlled acceleration.. it's quite scary too coz i left it in cruise at 175, and when we came up to an inclination in the road i.e. uphill, got a bit shocked coz it just kept going and felt like going faster.

pretty sure u get a fair bit more than that if u plant the pedal down... 6 seconds to 100 should equal a decent amount of Gs and considering it's able to swallow the speedometer right to the end with a full load says a fair bit about it.

[o_man_ra23]

ya well he's pointing out 1/8 G in CRUISE mode i.e. computer controlled acceleration.. it's quite scary too coz i left it in cruise at 175, and when we came up to an inclination in the road i.e. uphill, got a bit shocked coz it just kept going and felt like going faster.

pretty sure u get a fair bit more than that if u plant the pedal down... 6 seconds to 100 should equal a decent amount of Gs and considering it's able to swallow the speedometer right to the end with a full load says a fair bit about it.

My point exactly. Lets see a GTR pull 2 ton plus load eh??

[CrUZida]

All that means is that the LS430's cruise actuator has more oomph and throw than most cars.

[o_man_ra23]

the LS430's cruise has more oomph than most cars' overall oomph. I would like to see the stats of somebody giving one full boot. Should get over a 1/4 of a G... not bad for a big heavy car with 2 airconditioners, power steering and a big arse alternator hanging off it.

Cheers, Owen

[Douglas Black]

Without having read this whole thread, and without being sure what year your IS200 is, I would have figured a 3SGTE would go in easier... but the last of these was from the japanese caldina in 2002 from what I can tell.

http://www.cars-directory.net/specs/toyota/caldina/2002_9/2028/

Food for thought...

[Vios-GT_07]

the LS430's cruise has more oomph than most cars' overall oomph. I would like to see the stats of somebody giving one full boot. Should get over a 1/4 of a G... not bad for a big heavy car with 2 airconditioners, power steering and a big arse alternator hanging off it.

Cheers, Owen

i did drag one a few times actually.. but didn't have the RSM or G-sensor on me.. had a stopwatch though.. and yea.. 0-100 is definitely 6 seconds if not less.. (4 people and golf-bags)..

whooped an S-15 among them.. and yea like i mentioned b4 it'd reach the end of the speedo, all u have to do is ask.. the bullet-proof mercedes is still faster though..

if that was in an IS200... and the IS200 is the new AE-86 then wow... imagine the drift-scene... no more flooring to go sideways..!

and having said that, i'd say the LS430's mechanical package is nothing short of impressive. the diff is definitely on my wishlist..

[CrUZida]

A complete LS430 is on my wishlist.

[o_man_ra23]

Thats been discussed, read the rest of the thread. The RWD conversion involved becomes the PITA unless you can do most of the work yourself.

Cheers, Owen

Without having read this whole thread, and without being sure what year your IS200 is, I would have figured a 3SGTE would go in easier... but the last of these was from the japanese caldina in 2002 from what I can tell.

http://www.cars-directory.net/specs/toyota/caldina/2002_9/2028/

Food for thought...

[oldcorollas]

Without having read this whole thread, and without being sure what year your IS200 is, I would have figured a 3SGTE would go in easier... but the last of these was from the japanese caldina in 2002 from what I can tell.

http://www.cars-directory.net/specs/toyota/caldina/2002_9/2028/

Food for thought...

and those caldinas are still available....

as for the emissions thing... emisions of engine package must meet that of the car or the engine (ie you can't make either worse).. and proving you meet emissions will depend on the engineer... and the RTA/EPA later...
anyone feel like reading the NCOP?

[Nark]

A complete LS430 is on my wishlist.I want 2!!!

[TheToyman75]

Not to revive an old thread but anyone got the gear ratio's for the 3SGTE 6 speed ??

[Dimitri]

ill dig some up i saw posted on another forum wait up...

[Dimitri]

3.874 , 2.175 , 1.585 , 1.223 , 1.000 , 0.869

[AndyTTR]

sorry for digging up an old thread, but nobody's mentioned this yet - aren't there off the shelf turbo / supercharger kits for the RS200 Altezza? If you converted IS200 to Gen 5 3SGE (using a half-cut) and added one of these kits wouldn't it give the easiest result (in terms or the conversion and engineering) while maintaining the weight balance? I'd imagine it wouldn't be the best bang-for-buck alternative though.

[gianttomato]

Good alternative.
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/3813/3uzff7.jpg

[RONA]

Lexus already did it shame they wouldn't release it:(

[Nark]

Lexus already did it shame they wouldn't release it:(I think it was just TRD/Rod Millen that did it.

[RONA]

I think it was just TRD/Rod Millen that did it.
Rod Millen built it but the car was commissioned by Lexus to be built by him for the 2003 SEMA show.

Its a shame really that they didn't produce it, it could of been pitched quite well against say an M3 type sports car:(

[Dimitri]

has anyone noticed the price these are going for now? talk about buyers market, which can only be a good thing.

in about 2 years ill be building mine and itll be 3sgte for sure. cant wait.

[Mos]

The cost of a 3SGE front cut is prohibitive - the 1UZ or 3UZ is either the same price or cheaper. A turbo kit will probably set you back more than the half cut...

The 3S has potential to be better balanced, but the torque curve will not be as nice as a UZ. There are a bunch of turbo RS200s running around in NZ - you will have the usual turbo compromises. For the track, a turbo 3S will probably be better (it would still take a lot of development to get 400Nm out of a 3S...), but for a daily driver the UZ will be so very much sweeter.

Commissioned by Lexus is not the same as Lexus building it. Rod Millen built it for Lexus (curious as to who has final ownership...). The engine bay layout does not suit a V8, so for Lexus to "release" it they would need to redesign portions of the chassis and go through the usual problems with crash testing et al - as nice as it sounds, it was never going to happen.

Yeah, they are getting cheaper.

Mos.

[Dimitri]

for starters. im not talking about using a gen 5. im talking about using a gen 2.

for me persoanlly i think installing a v8 in any car these days is ridiculous. fuel/rego/madness. thats me though :)

the position im in means if i were to take the route youre describing, the engine/turbo kit is likely to cost less than half of what youre suggesting. no im not dreaming, we've done exactly that already (purchased a beams and a turbo kit for it aswell as an os giken twin plate to suit for less than 5k). theyre already installed in my boss ae86, sans turbo.. just getting a handle on the tuning of it na first.. posted the link in this thread http://toymods.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14418&page=4

either way id probably just use a gen2, with a light rebuild maybe using gen 3 or aftermarket pistons and some cams. turbo something like a gtrs. and an albins syncro'd cr w58. would only be looking to make somewhere between 300-350 hp.

p.s legality. there are ways and means.

[Mos]

for me persoanlly i think installing a v8 in any car these days is ridiculous. fuel/rego/madness. thats me though :)
Wha??!?! you expect a turbo 3S to burn less fuel, be easier to register and insure?!? :p
I'm keen to discuss the madness you speak of, without agression, just on genuine merit :)

I'll suggest another variable - if you're using a gen2 or 3 3S, then you would need to compare it to a first generation 1UZ, which these days can be had for peanuts.
If we use a VVTi 1UZ or 3UZ, then I'd suggest the Altezza 3S would be a more appropriate comparison. Thoughts?

When you're bringing rebuilds and cams into the equation, the costs go up (as you know), opening up other avenues, such as twin turbo V8s ;).

Your position and contacts will make any of these swaps easier and cheaper :p

Mos.

[Dimitri]

i do expect it to burn less fuel... is that unreasonable? ive never owned a v8 but i guess if your mostly tootling a 2L engine around off boost most of the time(as you do with regular driving).. your going to be using less fuel than tootling around a 4L (+) v8.

rego.. as in cheaper to register.. not easier. its only hard once.. but i dont see that as being ALOT harder. anyone who compliances cars now is soon going to be required to have tools to do the emissions testing.. which makes it cheaper/more accessible. and thats the only extra variable i might have to deal with ;)

insurance.. similar boat id expect.. i am just turned 25 with a "colourfull" driving history.. nothings going to be easy.. so i dont.. hah.

your comparision is fair, but i dont know if youre understanding of my motivations. theyre not purely based on initial purchase price, its about balance, and also the type of engine i appreciate. i like that era of engine engineering. theyre simple, theres nothing there that doesnt need(for lack of a better word) to be there.

i like carburettors too BTW ;)(as well as efi)

as far as the rebuild thing.. its a 4 banger.. i need half the cams and pistons you do, another advantage :) once again, if you assemble the engine yourself, a rebuild isnt that expensive... and being an I4.. its probably about the easiest automotive engine for an amateur not to get wrong.

i dont think i ever said its the ultimate engine, but its the one id use, and for me for valid reasons. a v8 gxe10 is still an awesome car.. but id rather a cam'd turbo 3s one every day of the week.

[AndyTTR]

converting / engineering a gen 2 to work in this chassis will require a lot of work. Why re-invent the wheel when the SXE10 3SGE already comes ready to go?

http://i16.ebayimg.com/05/i/08/a2/28/e9_12.JPG

http://i5.ebayimg.com/03/i/08/ac/97/7e_12.JPG

The mounts are already on the block and the appropriate crossmember is available - there are no mounts other than on the timing belt side of a Gen 2 engine. With then Gen 2 you'll have to look at things like the alternator position, throttle body orientation and changing ignition systems to get rid of that distributor hanging out the back (firewall clearance). Also the Gen 2 has to be mounted on an angle and needs further mods to make it sit right and mate up with the gearbox. The Gen 5 has a much bigger lower crankcase / sump section which is reinforced to suit RWD application. I know we weren't considering cost, nut if you were going to fork out ~$20k on a XE10 Chassis why skimp and put in such an old (and relatively low-tech) engine?

[CrUZida]

i do expect it to burn less fuel... is that unreasonable? ive never owned a v8 but i guess if your mostly tootling a 2L engine around off boost most of the time(as you do with regular driving).. your going to be using less fuel than tootling around a 4L (+) v8
I think you are under estimating just how fuel efficient a 1UZ can be.

Getting 7L/100km is not unheard of with these motors, and thats the non-vvti version.

I would say the VVTi version would be even more efficient.

(Figures are not based on factory 1800kg cars, but conversions, so ~1300kg cars)

[Dimitri]

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a31/slydar/100_1631.jpg

done. piece of piss.

its not skimping, its got everything i want and nothing i dont,as i described in my post, its the type of engine that apeals to me. its nice and mechanical, theres no tricks, what you see is what you get.

theres no problem sitting the engine upright at all. no mods required. i think you ment intake side re the mounting. theres enough there. alternators no problem, normal mr2 bracket is fine. i really doubt once youve taken off the dizzy cap and put on a low profile cover there'll be any clearance issue.

bell housings easy, theres atleast 2 lite aces at every wrecker i ever go to. id much prefer to use a W box anyway.

i dont think you really read my post properly, and i dont think youve ever been envolved in a rwd gen 2 3s conversion.

cruz.. i probably am/was. still, i dont think fuel consumptions a worthy argument, maybe theyre similar, maybe even the uz pips it by a little, but it wouldnt be much.

btw im not gonna pay 20k for one.. ever. theyre around all time time now for 17k through regular avenues, let alone really digging, and by the time im ready, theyll be even less.

[AndyTTR]

i dont think you really read my post properly, and i dont think youve ever been envolved in a rwd gen 2 3s conversion.
not on my own car, but i've seen and helped with 2 others. Just yesterday I saw a Caldina Gen 4 3SGE running in an AE71.

theres no problem sitting the engine upright at all. no mods required.
The problem that we came across was that when mounted vertically that oil would pool in the head. This was because there are no oil drain galleys on one side, its designed so that when its on an angle the oil collects on the intake side and drains to the sump. To get around this we had to tap some lines on the exhaust side and run them to the sump.

Im not saying you're way is the wrong way, i'm just suggesting the way that I would do it if I ever owned an IS.

[Dimitri]

ahhhumm thats a gen 2 3s. in an 86.. i dont see how the oil can pool in one head and not in another if theyre the same. works fine on that engine. if you for some reason had the engine tilted heavily to towards the exhaust side... youd be in trouble.. but if its flat how much can it really pool up before it finds its way down the oil drain? i guess someone could calculate that if they wanted to, surface area within the x miniscus?? or whatever of engine oil. im pretty happy to just go with.. hardly any.. :)

ever looked at a 2s? or a 4age?

oil drainage isnt a "problem", not on a gen 2 anyway. i guess if you really werent sure youd do what you did, so.. yeah.. but that 86 has been running with that engine for a long time without any problems.

[Celica RA45]

dimitri i use to run a gen 2 motor in the 45 and i had drain backs at the back of head and btw no 2 and 3 on the exhaust if you are using a w57 box and gen2&3 3sge the motor leans over to the exhaust side 20mm out of level and was racing these up to 8500 rpm 1st we put a oil restricter in the cyl head to stop to much oil to the head from 6mm back to 2mm and dash 12 oil drain lines to the sump this solves the oil problem gen 4 3sge are fwd i used 1 but they are all rwd cyl heads anyway so there is no issue with the fwd and rwd beams as they have a oil restrictor in the head gasket

[thechuckster]

(hopefully not a dumb question) where does the 3sge have a connection for oil to the turbo?

If it's on the head (like my 1G-GTE heads) i'd be worried about putting a restrictor in the oil flow up to the head? if it's not fed from the head then pleaz ignore this q.

[Mos]

i do expect it to burn less fuel... is that unreasonable? ive never owned a v8 but i guess if your mostly tootling a 2L engine around off boost most of the time(as you do with regular driving).. your going to be using less fuel than tootling around a 4L (+) v8. What Peewee said :) Will be interesting to see the difference, so let us know in two years time :)

insurance.. similar boat id expect.. i am just turned 25 with a "colourfull" driving history.. nothings going to be easy.. so i dont.. hah. I believe the atmo 4L will be cheaper and easier to insure than a turbo.. unfortunate turbo tax... I didn't get quotes for a 2L turbo though, but will try and see what the difference is. My driving history is pretty bland :)

your comparision is fair, but i dont know if youre understanding of my motivations. theyre not purely based on initial purchase price, its about balance, and also the type of engine i appreciate. i like that era of engine engineering. theyre simple, theres nothing there that doesnt need(for lack of a better word) to be there.

i like carburettors too BTW ;)(as well as efi) Fair enough :) I guess I like technology, hence the push for a VVTi engine.
When you say balance, do you mean chassis balance or balance of compromises?
Would it be fair to say that you like the engine and are seeking a decent chassis to put it into?
For me it's I love the car, but it's grossly underpowered - with the 1G it's about as powerful as a 4AGE sprinter (which I had, and collected parts for a gen2 3S swap :p). Personally I guess I feel the *XE10 chassis is too heavy for a 2L...

i dont think i ever said its the ultimate engine, but its the one id use, and for me for valid reasons. a v8 gxe10 is still an awesome car.. but id rather a cam'd turbo 3s one every day of the week. Nah, you just said a V8 is madness :)
Ultimate engine depends on many variables, as you say.. for me the choice wasn't that difficult - I wanted factory reliability, no loss of handling, decent power increase over stock. One factor, reliability, more or less meant it couldn't be turbo (I had a factory turbo bend a shaft 200km from home - slow trip back); because I use the car for work on a daily basis I wanted to decrease potential problems [resulting from modifications].
Horses for courses :)

I think OlmanRA23 wants to twincharge a 3S and stick it in an IS200 :)

Mos.

[Lambolica]

I think also that with the current rules the engine needs to be the same age or newer than the car it's going into for emissions however I don't really know how clear cut this line is when it comes to long production run engines.

Sadly you couldn't put an 18R-G into the IS200 as that would be the ultimate package (if the IS200's drive line is up to the task.) ;)

with the pricing and relative ease that this conversion looks to be, this combo may well be the next 1j into Cressida type conversion as the prices of the IS drop into "Toymoders" teritory. I for 1 am waiting with baited breath to see how this turns out, as Mos has mentioned it is the reliability issue that makes this swap interesting to me, More power, similar handling, probably similar fuel economy.

Cheers
Simon

[Celica RA45]

lambolica why would you put a boat anchor in the is200 a gen 5 3sgte motor would be the way to go ,no disy issues and they make about 270 ps std

[Mos]

I think also that with the current rules the engine needs to be the same age or newer than the car it's going into for emissions however I don't really know how clear cut this line is when it comes to long production run engines. The resulting package has to meet the emissions of whichever component is newer - ie engine or car (in NSW). Some engineers will not let you use an older engine, but that is their own personal preference and not regulatory.
So depending on the engineer, in theory it shouldn't be a problem to use an early 90s 3S-GTE, as long as it passes 200* emissions - with a rebuild and aftermarket computer this should not be a problem (pending engineer's acceptance of said aftermarket computer ;)).

with the pricing and relative ease that this conversion looks to be, this combo may well be the next 1j into Cressida type conversion as the prices of the IS drop into "Toymoders" teritory. I for 1 am waiting with baited breath to see how this turns out, as Mos has mentioned it is the reliability issue that makes this swap interesting to me, More power, similar handling, probably similar fuel economy. A 1JZ into an IS200 is probably easier... but they are the next chassis of choice (I just couldn't wait :p). Although I think it will be a while before they start popping up for 5-10k :)

lambolica why would you put a boat anchor in the is200 a gen 5 3sgte motor would be the way to go ,no disy issues and they make about 270 ps std
He's just stirring, just like River was in another IS200 thread :p

Mos.

[Lambolica]

lambolica why would you put a boat anchor in the is200 a gen 5 3sgte motor would be the way to go ,no disy issues and they make about 270 ps std

I in no way shape of form disagree with you there... Would I be correct in saying that you are refering to a BEAMS 3S-GE that is then turboed? or is there a gen 5 GTE?(recent Caldina?) I'm not up on the 3S's generations I've only just started looking into them for my project. Yes this would be a pretty awsome package, but I'm having enough trouble traacking down a BEAMS 3SGE front cut.

I'm seriously hung over today and I'm feeling pretty random. the brain isn't really firing on all cylinders. I'm going to stop posting now before I say somthing really dumb... If I haven't already.

Cheers
Simon

[Dimitri]

balance i mean handling. as far as liking the car/motor.. hmm its more like i still want a toyota but want to take the next step.. right now i drive an ae86, i see a turbo 3s xe10 as a good move foward in all area's.. but still somewhat in the same vein.. more power and a chassis that can handle it.. but still possible to be driven in a similar way/similar terrain.

p.s it is madness(IMHO).. but the actual driving enjoyment would no doubt still be there.