Blacktop 3sge into Sw20

[Lonewolf]

As it stands, I'm planning to replace the 3s-ge with one of the beams blacktop 3s-ge into my MR2 bathurst, with a 3s-gte gearbox (with LSD). As such, I'm not doing anything to the stock engine unless i can put it in the blacktop when that's ready. If anyone has done the conversion before, any words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.

I'm guessing not a terrible lot of custom work would be needed for the swap, i'm guessing the mounts and sump will need attention. Would the turbo belhousing be a straight swap though? I figured out recently the flywheel is different between turbo and NA models

Does anyone know if
- Crank Pulley
- Intake manifold gasket
- Throttle body
these 3 items are interchangable between the 3s-ge, beams 3s-ge and 3s-gte?

Edit: Summary of things that will need attention during the swap
- Head will foul on strut tower when it torques (Polyurethane mounts)
- Oil Sump, Dipstick (Caldina or SW20 redtop sump, or go custom )
- Mounts (need to be adapted to fit)
- Intake Exhaust Different (But going custom anyway)
- Flywheel different
- Starter motor needs to be relocated
- Wiring the ECU in a real pain

[wagonist]

I think you need to stick your car up on ramps & have a look underneath.:rolleyes:
3 of the 4 engine mounts are on the gearbox, so using another SW20 box (even the turbo) means no drama there.
The other mount on the end of the engine is most likely interchangable between the motors, if they're not already the same.
If your current driveshafts are only one piece, ie one long one & one short one, I'd be using the split shaft turbo versions (actually you will have to anyway as the gearbox end spline is bigger than the NA versions)
Physically, the motor should just go straight in with no mods.
The wiring on the other hand will need changing.

PS what year is your car, if its a 96 or newer I may be interested in your old 3S-GE...;)

[urantia]

i undertook the same conversion on an aw11 mr2, with the aw11 one mount had to be fabbed up (thanx to charliemr2) to fit this in. Then it was just a matter of wiring. So for an sw20 which is already set up for 3s engines your going to have very easy conversion on your hands. Sump/crossmembers should not pose any problems.


I don't believe the throttle body is interchangable but i could be wrong, others maybe but if your getting a complete beams engine why do you need to interchange those bits?

Gearbox should bolt right up to the beams block, but i can't answer if you'll run into issues with the starter motor location (ie may be in a diff place)

Charliemr2 if he's on these forums should be able to answer your specific questions better.

[Lonewolf]

That would be good then, I'm told its a real biatch to wire up a beams, but hey, if its only relitively minor items, thats more time devoted to getting the wiring right.

95 bathurst, but i think only a gen 2 3s-ge. but i'll be keeping it anyway, its mint condition and if i blow the beams, i've got a spare till the beams gets fixed.

The beams wont be stock. I'm gonna strip down the bottom end and have it built to handle more power than i'm chasing, that way it shouldnt need to come out because i cracked the crank or conrod or something stupid like that. thats why i was asking bout those parts :)

Urantia - the AW11 must be a weapon with a blacktop spewing its exhaust over the 2nd place getter :)

[Celica RA45]

are you going to turbo it or get more na power from it ,also are you getting a caldina black top beams or a altezza rwd 1 that has ablack top rocker as well ,also the red top came out in the last 6months of the sw20

[Lonewolf]

More than likely an altezza blacktop, as i've found 3 such creatures that are in the $3600 price range, so hopefully at least 1 of them is decent condition. Dont know much about caldina blacktops are they similar to the altezza's?

Yes i do plan on turboing it, but thats not really something that'll be happening for a long time and will be happening after I get the swap itself done. It'll probably end up being 4 years away thou, as i doubt anyone will consider insuring it till i hit 25 period, as it is shannons wont insure the car in stock trim, just cause of the type of car and my age. Bottom end is going to be built to handle the turbo.

[Celica RA45]

you will have to many hassles with the altezza motor as its a rwd motor ,you are better to look for a caldina or last 6months sw20 beams as they are fwd and are set up as such ,altezza you would need new plenum new extractors new f/wheel and starter motor as well as sump and alternator etc better the fwd option

[urantia]

CelicaRA45 are you sure the redtop beams came out withint the last 6months (in sw20?)
pretty sure charlie mr2 has his redtop beams before then. Then again he may of had the celica version if there was one?

[Celica RA45]

the 1st red top beams came out in the last 6months of both the sw20 mr2 and also the st202 celica these then ahd a black rocker cover and the cats were moved up into the extractors like the current caldina and rav 4 models with the vvti black tops

[Lonewolf]

I dont want one of the MR2 beams, the redtops only had vvti on intake only off memory, do the non altezza beams blacktops have the same base block? As long as its got the same features, i'm not Overly concerned with where its from, the altezza was the only car i was aware that had the beams blacktop (or a 3sge with over 200hp). If it has the dual vvti head and all the other gadgets, cool. I'm still planning, so am still on a learning curve, hence the thread. Its good to know theres other candidate cars for the eng swap thou.

[urantia]

the blacktop beams in fwd version also only has VVTI on the intake cam.

I believe the altezza RWD beams 3sge is the only one with VVTI on both intake and exuast cam.

but heck you can't complain about 190-200hp from 2.0litre 4 cyl non turbo motor. (fwd beams motors)

[Valkyrie]

Hi,
Have a look on www.mr2oc.com.

People have commented that the dual VVTi engines will not fit as the exhaust VVTi will hit one of the strut towers. It fits when the car is not running, but there is not enough clearance when the car is running.

Cheers

[Lonewolf]

Where theres a will, theres a way. Good excuse for polyurethane engine mounts, and with some other work, i'm sure it'd be doable.

A question i'm still yet to find out the answer too, i cant seem to find a part number for the crank pulley on a MR2 3s-gte, to see if it'll mate up where the 3sge crank pulley goes, I've found a lightweight crank pulley for turbo mr2's but cant find a non turbo one, unorthodox is yet to reply, the guy sellin it claims it wont fit (and wont fit the GT4 3sgte), and one of my friends claims it will (who owns a gt4 3sgte). I've been to toyota who dont have parts listings for turbo mr2's but the crank pulley off an 89-93 GT4 will fit mine, but not post 93 models. If anyone knows that they will or wont fit, can u let me know.

Edit:

Is the head the only difference between the redtop and blacktop? If so, i think I might be able to settle for a redtop. Initial install will be alot less time and money (as it should be doable in less than a week seeming its an engine the mr2's came out with)

[urantia]

Have you got any prices on beams motors yet? any forsale in aus? i'd be curious what there going for nowadays. They use to command an absolute price premium. Probably still do?

[Lonewolf]

Yea, the 3 blacktops i found had $4500 on them, thats the longblock, but as i wasnt going to need the gearbox, he said i'd be looking at closer to $3700. Haven't seen any redtops for sale, i dont know what they are in, except a celica st202, but i dont know if they are aussie delivered. have seen a jap redtop on ebay for $1800? american + shipping

[Celica RA45]

i have 1 for 3000 if you are interested

[Alchemist]

Did see a redtop beams SW20 halfcut going a while back for $3800....not a bad buy...but you want the blacktop....

[nos4ag]

Hey, wouldnt the 3S-GTE gearbox have different ratios to the standard 3SGE box?? I think it would!! And if so, might not drive too good without forced induction.
This problem happened when I did the conversion on my AE82, with a 4AGZE box.

[mullett]

Other problem (which you're probally aware) is if you build the bottom end to handle boost;
A) It will be heavier (stronger rods, pistons etc)
B) Low compression means much less NA power until you turbo it.

Maybe keep the motor stock, and when you get the funds to turbo it, do the build then...

RM.

[Lonewolf]

If thats the case with the GB, i think i'd be borrowing just the LSD then

And who said you need to run low compression when running boost? By the time i turbo it, we'll probably be up to 12:1 on unleaded, as it is i've seen turbo's running 10:1 now. Granted it will be a bit heavier though... but a lot more fun. :D

[terryo]

I can confirm the Altezza engine will not fit properly without major sump changes. You need a Caldina or SW20 red top sump, dipstick and oil pump to avoid major hassles. These can be fitted to an Altezza blcok. The left & front parts of the Altezza block are not drilled for the SW20 mounts and mods are needed . The Altezza front pulley is totally different and you cant use a earlier version without major mods.

[Lonewolf]

Thanks for that terryo, If all the problems are known up front, then it's gonna go a whole lot smoother as they will be expected, Its the unexpected problems that tend to suck. Have you been involved in this swap before?

[Lonewolf]

I've been sitting on it for a while now, thinking of the best way to tackle it. For the extra 10 hp there is going to be a lot of work involved it seems, If the only main difference is that the blacktop has an exhaust VVTI, maybe i'm going to be better off finding a redtop beams to put in, and when the altezza heads become more availible, put the blacktop head on the redtop block.

Does this sound a little more achievable to you guys?

[urantia]

yeah for sure a fwd redtop is much easier for your conversion, so much less farkin around with a rwd altezza motor. Also you can get blacktop beams in fwd format, but still only vvti on the intake. Not really sure on the differences between the red and black tops in FWD format.

I should have a blacktop beams from a caldina (fwd) to play around with soon can't wait.:D

[Lonewolf]

Yea, it sounds more applicable to me,
I've got myself a set of hurricane headers for a celica st162, Which are to be port matched, ceramic coated and fitted, with a 2.5" single tip exhaust from that, its gonna come close to $1000 (at trade prices too!), if it mates up to the redtop head, saves me doing the headers again at a later date (at least till i turbo it).

[terryo]

the GTE box has different axles , outer CV's etc to you NA MR2. complete swap needed. The ratios are slightly different with every model. I have most of them charted if neeeded. The GTE axles need a support boss on the block that was not present on the Altessa block I had in my hand. CelicaRA45 can confirm this .

[AndyTTR]

Just a few things i picked up reading over the thread;

- If your car is a Bathurst edition, then i'm pretty sure it has a Gen 3 engine.

- The 'red top' from the late SW20's and ST202 is the Gen 4 (single VVTi) BEAMS engine. It is identical (except for the position of the catalytic converters?) to the 'black top' BEAMS engine from the Caldina. The Altezza 'black top' is a Gen 5 with dual VVTi as others have said.

- ST162 headers wont fit the later model 3SGE heads. I'm fairly certain that the Gen 3 (which you already have) and Gen4 exhaust manifolds (pre-collector section) are identical. Dont waste your money on the ST162 extractors because they wont fit!

-For more info on converting a FWD engine to your MR setup check out this site:
http://gtfour.supras.org.nz/3S-GTE%20Conversion.htm
It refers to converting a MR engine to FWD, but doing it backwards (MR -> FWD) will require the same amount of work.

Hope this helps. :)

[Lonewolf]

Its definately a gen 3 (unless someone's changed the engine number, which i doubt), i never got around to the fitting of the headers we got, as soon as the heatshielding came off we decided against putting the other headers on, as the factory units were top notch as far as quality went and we doubted that any more could be done to them, so when i go down sydney way next i'm going to get them ceramic coated and leave it at that.

I've found a Gen 4 from a MR2 on fleabay ($5700 for a true longblock), the ad show the low k's (around 20k miles) and he claims he has one in his car, so i've begun a game of 20 questions with him to find out how genuine the engine and its condition is in, i sent it off saturday, waiting to hear from him as i hit him with the harder questions straight up (whats the engine number, is it originally from a mr2 or celica or caldina... who inspected it seeming he is american and engine is still in japan) So i'll see how i go... by the time my curiosity is satisfied i might be able to afford it, though he is neg. on price

Am i correct in assuming the block is the same between the gen 4 redtop and gen 5 blacktop? If the above engine works out, i'll be looking to put a blacktop head on it, i expect this will be a lot less hassle and probably cheaper too than making an altezza engine fit.

Anyone know if the gen 3 and gen 4 (the SW20 one) share the same engine mounts, i'm guessing so but haven't confirmed this.

Also if anyone is interested in some st162 headers, i got some to sell cheaply (ie at almost trade price)