For the love of a tractor engine: The life and times of the 18R-G

[The Witzl]

Please feel free to add info, refute info, give argument, share pics, comparisons, etc etc..... All of this will go into the FAQ and then one day onto the website's Tech Library.....

I will continually update with any new info and pics that come to hand.

Toyota's Dependable 18R-G

The Early 18R-G, number 88210 and 88230

These were the most powerful of the 18R-G engines, with a boasted 140hp from the factory and running a pair of Mikuni Solex DCOE carburettors.
Compression was a high 9.7:1, there was no pollution/emission control gear, and the cam profiles are the most aggressive of all the 18R-G engines.
The heads are commonly considered the worst of all the 18R-G heads - rumoured to have smaller valves, and definitely having smaller ports, their overall design is improved upon as the engine went through its phases.

The 18R-GU, number 8825*

These are the most commonly found today, and from all accounts were produced in the most numbers back in their day. Again using Solex carbies, the biggest change moving into this phase of the 18RG was the addition of emission controls (EGR etc), shorter cam duration and lower compression pistons (down to 8.7:1). Of course this brought the rated power down to around 120hp.
There were improvements with this new generation of 18RGs though - the head received a little bit of a working over, receiving larger porting, better casting design and larger valves (now 45mm intake and 38.5mm exhaust).
The very last of the 18R-GUs was the 88253. Virtually the same as previous 18R-GU's except that the head was yet again updated with dual valve springs, larger ports again, better casting, larger exhaust studs, and other little improvements.
There are also differences in the intake manifold and Solex DCOE carbies, but as yes i have yet to identify the differences in any real detail.

The 18R-GEU, number 88270

Carburetion has been ditched in favour of a simple analogue EFI fuelling sytem on the most modern version of the 18RG. Compression was yet again reduced to 8.3:1, cam profiles were further reduced, but the addition of EFI along with electronic ignition (still with mechanical advance) made up for the losses associated with the EGR and other emission control systems implemented on the 18R-GU, such that the rated power was virtually unchanged.
The head is virtually the same as the 88253, save for reliefs cut in the intake ports for the injectors and the cams.

********************************
Further information to come, including comparisons of carbies, head castings, pistons, and other stuff.....
********************************

[CrUZida]

So would the best setup to be to use the late head and efi, with the early cams and block?
Or is that not possible?

[The Witzl]

yes that is the perfect setup of stock bits. The Solexs will give the most power, but the EFI will give the best useable power and far superior fuel economy.
I have close to this setup in the '28 right now.... 9.7:1 pistons, 88253 head, but 88250 cams..

The next trick is finding some of the rare 44 Solexs.... me being the carbie moron that i am i have no idea if the two different sets i have here are 44s, ones a set from an 88210, the other from an 88253.

[SeptemberSquall]

Correction: The Mikuni Solex carburettors aren't DCOEs, the designation is PHH. DCOE is a Weber carb.

As for your sizing question, 18R-G was not specced from factory with 44mm carbs, or any other carb than a 40PHH (reference: Wayne Stephenson, per a plethora of Toyota microfiche and hard copy manuals). A common misconception is that the 18R-G carbs 'should be' 44s as the engine is 'bigger than a 2T-G'. :rolleyes:

To ID your carbs, check the back of the throttle vanes. '165' indicates 40PHH, '175' indicates 44PHH. Or just run a vernier over the manifold side of the carb throat? More info here (http://www.wolfcreekracing.com/carbid.html) .

[river]

Hi,

18RG models and power output.

Model----------C/Ratio---------HP
18RG -----------9.7:1------------145
18RGR ---------9.2:1------------135
18RGRU--------9.2:1------------130
18RGU--------- 8.7:1------------125
18RGEU------ 8.3:1------------125

seeyuzz
river

[river]

Hi,

So, what sort of HP would I be looking at by bore/stroke an 18RG out to 2.4litres, get it ported/polished and balanced, and run a custom EFI, and using the more aggressive cams of the older 88210 engine?

seeyuzz
river

[The Witzl]

one would only be guestimating.... maybe 160-170hp?

[The Witzl]

here's little more comparison data....

check out the difference in carbies and manifolds from an 88210 and an 8825*

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/88210-88250-carbies.jpg

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/88210-88250-manifolds.jpg


And for reference, this is the crown of a 9.7:1 piston...

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/97piston-crown.jpg

[Steve-AE86]

damn...when i saw the thread title 'for the love of a tractor' i thought you were talking about SR20's :p

[The Witzl]

i said tractor motor, not wheel chock. :P

[RONA]

damn...when i saw the thread title 'for the love of a tractor' i thought you were talking about SR20's :p
Lol the sound very much like tractors :rolleyes:

[The Witzl]

Ok, please dont let this topic go waywards!!

Now... refering back to the pictures above of the 88210 manifold + carbies vs the 88250 manifold + carbies - you can see that the 88210 manifold is substantially longer, and thus places the carbies further outwards. This to me tends to suggest that this early model was used in a car that didnt have the same brake booster and master cylinder setup as the RA25-RA35 celicas, since on these models the carbies are VERY close to the master cylinder.

I also have some pictures of River's intake manifold on his 88230 18R-G in the RA25, and this engine has a similar manifold to the 88210, but it is shorter like the later 88250 manifold.

The major diferences in these 18R-G vs 18R-GU manifolds is the balance chamber design and the water jacketing.

The 88210 and 88230 manifolds (18R-G) have what is quite literally a metal pipe acting as a manifold balancing chamber, with a couple of fittings coming off it for various ancillaries, and is attached to the manifold by rubber hoses. You can see where the outlets are on the pics above - they are the largish (my guess - 5/8") outlets on the carby side of the manifold, in between no.1&2 runners and between no.3&4 runners.
Also note on the 88210 manifold that there is engine coolant present in the areas between 1&2 and 3&4 runners! You can see where the coolant comes from on the mounting flange to the head, and the rubber line (going off to the right in pics above) which is attached to fittings on the underside of the manifold. I can only guess what the purpose of this was....

On the 88250 manifold pictured above, you can see the balance chamber is a nice cast item that is bolted to the manifold via a couple of mounting flange faces where 5/8" ports were before. There is also no engine coolant present in the manifold, unlike the earlier versions.

I am yet to disassemble and compare the differences in the two types of solex carburettors pictured above, but i will get to this one day soon.

[SeptemberSquall]

I am yet to disassemble and compare the differences in the two types of solex carburettors pictured above, but i will get to this one day soon.

http://www.wolfcreekracing.com/carbid.html

The carbs on the left are Type S4 carbs, among the most common of the Mikuni Solex PHH carbs. These carbs in 40mm size were most commonly used on the 2T-G. Did come in 44s too, check the back of the butterflies.

The carbs on the right are Mikuni manufactured Solex carbs built OEM for Toyota 18R-G. Parts for these carbs are interchangable and they take the same kits. I've got a set of these carbs disassembled and a digicam if you really want to see inside.

[scootaphill]

as a side note on the runners.
i believe that teh 210 motor would have more torque due to the longer runners *however* im not sure how much more. its my understanding that the torque will rise with the length of the runners. in turn your top end improves with shorter runners.

cheers
phill

[Mr DOHC]

once i find my 18RG tech article {on one of 10 dvd's ATM} i'll post it

or is SteveM has his copy still, he can post it

[jeffro ra28]

I have been working on building a pretty nuts N/A 18rg. Whilst in the process of this i got hold of a close to dead 88270 head. Chopped it in half to see how much hogging i can do!

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9128/pict00048fg.th.jpg (http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict00048fg.jpg)


More pics are available if u PM me ur email adress and ask nicely:)


River, if ud like to know how the 2.4l 18rg goes i will soon be able to give u an answer close to the money. It wont be a 2.4l but a 2.2l. Hopefully it will have a megasquirt or something similar and all custom made (by me) isolated intake runners. Yay trumpets!!!
And all the other standard performance crap, oh and a few little tricks here and there.

[The Witzl]

That is well cool!

This is a comparison of a nicely ported 88230 head and a nicely trashed 88250 head.... notice how the ported head has the valve bowls shaped and opened up to angle down into the combustiono chamber rather sharply..... very nice =)

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/6995/comparingports0ik.th.jpg (http://img378.imageshack.us/my.php?image=comparingports0ik.jpg)

[pilot]

I have a similar project to jeffro´s. It´s an RA63 with a 18R-G which has individual throttle bodies and a Wolf 3D V4 plus. It is being prepared slowly and didn´t started yet, but it will by February (summer holidays in here...).

That would be the first step. After that, engine will be fully rebuilt and CR modified to permit turbocharging.

You can see pictures in my home page.

Please, Jeffro, can you send me more pics of that cut cylinder head?

[jeffro ra28]

Pilot, can do.

Perhaps people that have got their 18rg's flow tested can post what they flowed. it would be nice to have a benchmark to what is acheivable from them.

There is 2 flow benches at work so ill be able post mine up once their done.

[pilot]

The stage of my project at which I´m now is very basic: just make it run with EFI and ind. throttles. Afterwards I plan to make improvements in the engine.

[brett_celicacoupe]

thought i might add this link i found a while back.

not sure where it came from or if any1 already found it but anyway;

http://users.on.net/~csharman/docs/18rgeu.pdf

[o_man_ra23]

The upper timing tensioner of the 18RG looks to me to be the same as that of a 3TGTE. I have an 88230, with the shorter version of the 88210 runners, and the carbs which are shown in the left. The pipes that go off to the balancer are indeed 5/8", and as for the ancillaries that the outlets go to... well ive never had them connected to anything, they were blocked off when i got the carbs... so does anyone know what they were actually meant for?? charcoal canister perhaps??
The 2.4l conversion is said to be a poor one to undertake, as the bore/stroke becomes out of square, and the motor loses its revvablity(much like a 22RE). I would be more inclined to go with just the 2.2l conversion, as this will still revv quite well.
The shorter runner doesnt give much in the way of more top end power, what it gives is much better throttle response, which makes the top end more controllable.
Jeffro, how did the head I sent down to you turn out?? It all seemed quite good (apart from being dirty).

Cheers, Owen

[The Witzl]

I'll get some pics up of river's 100% stock 88230 engine and another 100% stock 88253 engine which show where all the ports on the balance chamber are connected to....

I've also got two 18RG's in parts to get some comparisons of individual parts and componenets.... will start to photo catalogue it all tonight :)

[Mr DOHC]

if u need any pics of stuff for cataloguing karl, let me know

[Celica RA45]

carl that inlet with solexes that i sold you came off a corona with a 9rg 1900 cc

[Garth AE86]

there was an ae86 around with one of these in it recently i think

anyone own it?

[Steve M]

Mr DOHC - if u need any pics of stuff for cataloguing karl, let me know

Same here, if you want pics and can wait for prints for me to scan in, no digital camera yet I am a bit of an 18RG hoarder, I don't get rid of much and if I find something, I just have to have it.
We cleaned out the storage facility the other day, filled $200 worth of various sized boxes, :eek:
The big bits didn't fit in the boxes though.

[Gleno28]

Hey Witzl, a while back on the other forum i put up some pics of the 88210, 250, 253 and 270 heads together that i had. Got detailed pics of the 210 and 250. I can email them to you if you want some extra pics for the thread.
Cheers
Glen.

[The Witzl]

Please do!
Email: thewitzl AT optusnet DOT com DOT au

Once i get back from holidays, and have some time to sort through my engines in pieces (i have to finish building one too!) I'll get cracking and get some pics and reference data up into this thread =)

[Steve M]

I just thought of another spec to put in here.

The camshafts are to be lined up with both camshaft timing slots (on flange next to front cam cap) are to be lined up at the 12:00 vertical position when the engine is at TDC for cylinder 1.

[The Witzl]

OK... time for some PICS!

This pic shows the differences in the 88230 and 88250 cams. Note the thickness at the front where the cam gear is attached!!

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/cam-difference.JPG

the following two pics show the cam gear differences, 88210 and then 88250

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/18RG-88210-cams.JPG

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/18RG-88250-cams.JPG

this is the valve bucket, with the shim still inside.... just in case you didnt know

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/bucket-shim.JPG

one and a half blocks.....list of parts:
1/ oil pump drive shaft. This is the 88250 one, with the fuel pump cam and dissy gear
2/ the oil pump, complete and assembled (and dirty)
3/ 88250 8.7:1 pistons and rods
4/ 88250 cam gear...
5/ head bolts
6/ 9.7:1 pistons from a previously rebuilt engine, broken..
7/ gudgeon pin (piston pin)

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/engine-parts.JPG

close up of one of the broken 9.7:1 pistons. They were 0.5mm oversize, and a couple had managed to blow BOTH ring lands for about 1/3 of the circumfrence. 3 of them also had busted skirts

You can see the broken ring lands here

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/18rg_love-010.JPG

Those broken ring lands came straight out. Even more interesting was that whoever rebuilt that engine used 18R-C rods! Look at the 18R-G rod to the right!!

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/97piston-001.JPG

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/97piston-004.JPG

Now here is a mind boggler - look at the part number for this 0.5mm oversize 9.7:1 piston!!!!

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/97piston-pn.JPG

[The Witzl]

more pics....

This is a COMPLETELY original 18R-G from River's RA25 GT. Cant remember if it's 88230 or 88210.... i think its 88210.

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/18rg_love-001.jpg

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/18rg_love-002.jpg

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/18rg_love-003.jpg

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/18rg_love-004.jpg

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/18rg_love-005.jpg

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/18rg_love-006.jpg

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/18rg_love-007.jpg

This is the Toyota Genuine oil filter - USE IT!

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/18rg_love-008.jpg

Just an 18R-GEU, for reference

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/18rg_love-009.jpg

My busted 88253 in pieces...

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/18rg_love-011.jpg

[The Witzl]

Here we have a completely disassembled and cleaned oil pump. NOTE the spacer at the bottom left - this is what makes the 18R-G pump different to an 18R-C one.

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/18rg_love-012.jpg

Here we have the 18R-G vs 18R rod comparison. Interestingly, the 18R-GEU lists the same part number for a rod as an 18R

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/18rg_love-013.jpg

a valve assembly. wow

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/18rg_love-014.jpg

valve guide on 88250 head

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/18rg_love-015.jpg

with the exhaust valve removed, here is the view of the exhaust port looking from combustion chamber on an 88250 head.

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/18rg_love-016.jpg

http://www.witzl.com/tech/18rg/18rg_love-017.jpg

[Gleno28]

Great work Witzl! you get more rep!
Another thing i noticed is that on my 88210 head, there was no yamaha logo compared to all other 18RG's??? maybe didn't want to advertise yet??

Also, (i'm sure it's been mentioned before) there are a few sorts of tappet covers, depending on the head with writing and oil cap on different sides.
Cheers
Glen.

[The Witzl]

yeah thats right, this is why some people refer to the later model 18RGs as the "yamaha head" version - when in fact they are all Yamaha heads (as is every toyota "G" head)

[river]

Hi,

Nice pics. Good visual info. Damn it, my engine needs a new paint job - that'll be done very soon. I don't like that brown gunk under that thing in the oil filter pic. I'm gonna have have a look at that next time I'm home.

seeyuzz
river

[The Witzl]

dont worry about that too much - its the carbies leaking a little fuel and then leaving a residue once the petrol evapourates, allowing shit to stick to it good. Mine do it too :)

[jeffro ra28]

Its photo time!? well this photo has been posted before, but it will make it easy future reference.

http://img494.imageshack.us/img494/7888/dscf0435mesurements2vl.jpg

[jeffro ra28]

These can also be very helpfull.

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/4497/18rgi12gs.gif

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/9349/18rgi25rh.gif

[ta22gt]

If someone in bris would like to come round to take some photos of my head and piston it will give some more ref. material for those interested in the 2.2l option. I have had heaps of head work done and it is running 12.5:1 comp forged pistons

Nev











;

[Mr DOHC]

what area u in nev

[Steve M]

What fuel set up are you running too, Nev? We've got some 12:1 pistons but are hesitant to use them for detonation reasons.

[ta22gt]

Am in eight mile plains.
As for fuel i run optimax with a splash of tolulene or avgas

[Steve M]

We've got some 0.5mm OS 9.7 pistons with the 88252 part number too. I reckon they were made as the standard replacement item for all 18RG's before that time.

An interesting point about the two different cam types: the 88231 fixed gear cams have an almost identical profile to the 88250 adjustable gear cams. Both sets were used before testing, so it could be wear that made the differences, they are so close.
So for all those people chasing the early model cams, you can have them in adjustable form of you get 88250s. We haven't profiled the 88210s yet though, there may be a difference yet.
I'll get some photos of the difference between the early an late model timing cases for you too Witzl.

[ta22gt]

Has anyone had any success getting hold of decent adj. cam gears to suit aftermarket high lift 18rg cams

[Steve M]

Thanks Nev.

Adjustable timing gears to suit 2TG (same as 18RG ones as far as I can tell).
http://www.kameariengineworks.co.jp/page20.htm

For those who are interested in 18RG pistons:
http://www.kameariengineworks.co.jp/page7.htm

Just a note before people get too exited, those pistons are the only 18RG item in their catalogue. On page 19 there is another page of 2TG stuff.

[ta22gt]

Timing gears look sweet.Would love to know a price on them but i cant read japanese. Also those pistons look very similar to the ones that i have. Mine current pistons were copied from a set of TRD forged items that were in the car when i first purchased it but two of them were stuffed so it was cheaper to replace 4 than to try and match 2

[Steve M]

The price is next to each photo, it's the bit with all the zeros after it.
At an exchange rate of 80yen/AUD (it probably more like 76) you'd end up paying $761.25 at most for the bottom end kit, $210 for the large timing chain damper replacement cog and $853 for the 18Rg pistons.
The cam timing gears would set you back $200 each for the complex ones and $93.75 for the simpler ones.
I am currently chasing down a set through Toyota TwinCam Engines (Sean Maloney) as he has a TRD template for drilling them into 8 useful timing holes instead of four. That's how they did it in the seventies.
Most of the stock timing pins and cogs have enough slack that you can get about 4 degrees of movement in each direction on each timing hole, you just have to tighten the bolts correctly afterwards so that they don't slip.

[tricky]

I'm doing an 18RG rebuild at the moment. Some aftermarket parts I have used are as follows:


ACL full gasket set: GK690
Hastings rings: RS1294*****4H


*** denotes OS in thou"
** denotes CA for cast, CR for chrome


ACL aux bearings: 2BS8286
ACL rod bearings: 4B1701
ACL main bearings: 5M1697


It's getting relatively hard to track some of these bits down. In Canberra, everything has to be ordered from Sydney, and the gasket sets are currently not in stock...

[scootaphill]

Gasket: Exhaust Manifold to Head

Genuine toyota part no# 17173-88250
imho worth every cent of $25

[Steve M]

Phil, is the Genuine gasket very different from the ACL one?
The ACL one is a graphite coated metal thing, most likely 2 layer metal. It has the bore reinforcement too. Basically it looks just like the ACL head gasket.

[scootaphill]

Steve hmm not sure as i havent seen an ACL gasket. the genuine one ... (off to shed to have a look at an old one) from your description and what im looking at nearly thr same the exhaust studs also have reinforcement rings (aswell as bore).
so it may come down to cost and availability

cheers

[Mr DOHC]

both the genuine one and the durapro ones have the reinforced holes

[Steve M]

One thing to keep an eye on is the shape of the bores on the cylinder head gasket.
ACL (durapro) have two different patterns.
The one I have in the ACL (not Durapro line) DK690 VRS kit has perfectly round bores and is therefore suitable for o-ringing. The Durapro single gaskets we've bought (same materials) have had an odd shaped bore hole, just like the 18RC ACL Ezy-fit crap gaskets.

[The Witzl]

GasMiser's head gaskets also have the same oval/odd shaped bore holes, either from their VRS kits for the 18R-GEU or the head gasket on its own. Part numbers i have hanging around somewhere....

[tricky]

Yes, Yes... I have flaked under the immense pressure of River and Witzl, and I have got two toyota genuine filters for my rebuilt engine. The part number is:


Toyota genuine oil filter: 15601-33021


Cost about $21 each.

For those interested in the ACL gasket kit, there are a few details I'd like to add:


The valve stem seals fit
The timing cover gasket needs modification
The oil filter mount-->block gasket is NOT included
The timing inspection cover gasket is NOT included
The oil cap gasket is NOT included
There are a few superfluous gaskets


There is a gasket with four closely spaced holes in it. I presume this could be an 18RGEU specific gasket. There is also a steel gasket. I have no idea what this could be. It could be exhaust flange related? I've never actually seen a stock exhaust manifold in person.

EDIT: Steve, if you end up tracking down some adjustable timing gears (or importing some of those jap ones), can you PM me? I'm not entirely impressed with the stock gears.

Also, does anyone know of the existance of SST-09248-27010. This is the tool for checking valve timing in the green bible. It'd probably be nicer to use this as a starting point than to rely on the positions the pins were in prior to strip-down.

[Steve M]

You wouldn't have a suitable timing inspection cover because you bought an 18RGEU cover for an 18RG.
My ACL VRS set comes with the two bolt type timing inspection cover gasket, and it's thick rubber!!! I hate that other gasket material, the DIY thickcardboard stuff, it compresses and you leak oil everywhere, it's just evil. It does the same thing for intake manifolds. I reckon I had to re-tighten the nutrs about three times before it was happy. That's an easy way to lose coolant and gain vacuum leaks.

Did you get the gasket that attaches block breather to the block? Man those things are a bitch to remove!

How closely spaced are the closely spaced holes in that mystery gasket?
Yes, that metal gasket is for the stock exhaust system, we've got one of those manifolds, buy no Y-tube to go on it.

[The Witzl]

The closely spaced gasket is for the intake on an 18R-GEU, it goes between the plenum and the runners as the two separate.

The Gas Miser VRS kit:

Includes the oil filer mount to block gasket
Timing cover gasket was fine
timing chain inspection cover gasket different to 18R-GU?
Includes block breather gasket

[RA23]

Now for something really important (?), the dipstick. I know that the RG one is at the exh side of the block and the R one at the dizzy side, but according to the books they are also different (15301-33012 for R, 15301-88230 for RG). I have 3 RG blocks and 1 RC and I have two 15301-33013 dipsticks (presumably RC) and two chopped off ones without a number or reading on it.
So why is this important? I filled a clean RG with the amount of oil that the books specify and the 33013 dipstick reads way overfilled. Could anyone check what the difference in lenght is supposed to be? If I'd be going off the RC dipstick I'd be running with not enough oil.

[ra_28]

Hi all
At the moment I building my Turbo 18rg again this time no money spared.
So far the block has been Xray and and sleeved at 92mm. The block has been oring and redecked. All journals have been remachined. The crank has been knife edged and rebalanced. Rods cracked tested and balanced. Custom 92mm forged pistions there a copy of a 18rc. 2.17mm thick head gasket. Oil pump relif valve shimmed for a little higher pressure. The head is in at Peter liddles trying to get it to flow up around the 500hp mark the combustion chambers have been cc to match the 92mm bore not 100% sure on ther valve size yet I'll find out when I get the head back. Cams are a high lift short duration specs yet to be relased to me by Ivan Tigh. Custom exhaust manifold with for now a t04b spec soon to have a t04s just depends what sort of flow I can get out of this head. Intake at the moment standard EFI manifold with over size throttle body and 600cc injectors with custom fuel rail. Compression ratio should be around the 7.6:1 If my calulations are correct. Larger fuel line installed 3/8 feed 1/2 return. Flywheel lightened with 4 puck brass button clutch and BMW M3 pressure plate wich gives around 1.3t of clamping pressure. Hopefully it should be ready for dubbo this year.

Thanks
Alex

[The Witzl]

Mr RA23 raises a very valid point!
I'll do some investigations into the depth the oil SHOULD be in an 18RC and compare it to what it should be for an 18R-G... and what the 33012 dipstick reads when used in an 18R-G.

As for Mr RA 28 here....
well buddy i certainly hope to see it out at dubbo!
I dont think i'll be finishing my 18R-GTE for Dubbo this year, but i'll have a shot :) I'll definitely be on for next year though!
I'll also be interested to see how your cams perferm with the combination you are using.

[RA23]

Sorry Witzl, I spoke to soon. Even though there is an issue with the part numbers of the dipstick, the actual depth appears to be the same. I overfilled it with oil because I got the conversion between quarts and litres wrong :-(
Anyway, I drained it and filled it again with the proper amount and it is spot on with the 18RC stick.

[The Witzl]

Oh well... that saves me a whole heap of effort then!!

I've got a few more useful parts to photograph and post up, along with some more information that's of good use.

[tricky]

You wouldn't have a suitable timing inspection cover because you bought an 18RGEU cover for an 18RG.

Did you get the gasket that attaches block breather to the block? Man those things are a bitch to remove!


:confused: Block breather? Where be the block breather? Does anyone have a pic?

No, my inspection cover is definitely an 88210 item on an 88210 head. There just isn't any king of inspection cover gasket in the kit.

[RA23]

:confused: Block breather? Where be the block breather? Does anyone have a pic?

That is the plate with the bit of pipe sticking out just above the oil filter. BTW the gasket is toyota part no 11273-33010

[Mr DOHC]

also, a VRS set is nothing below the head, the definition of VRS is Valve Regrind Set, so theres a VRS, which has HG, VSS, manifold gaskets ect ect

and a Full gasket set, which has the same but also has sump/timing cover ect ect

[tricky]

That is the plate with the bit of pipe sticking out just above the oil filter. BTW the gasket is toyota part no 11273-33010

The plate covering the aux shaft? Mine doesn't have a breather from here, just a plate...

Mr DOHC, I should add that the list I made of gaskets not included applies to the full gasket set, part no. GK690, as opposed to the VRS, DK690.

Steve, my block breather gasket (If we are indeed speaking of the same thing) was a piece of piss to get off. The old gasket was cork, so no probs there.

EDIT: Sorry about the shite pic, but are we talking about the same thing?

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b82/toolbox11/Celica/8b2eb4e1.jpg

[Mr DOHC]

that should have a little pipe coming of it going to the inlet manifold

i have a few spare

[RA23]

The plate covering the aux shaft? Mine doesn't have a breather from here, just a plate...

RC has no breather
RG does

[tricky]

that should have a little pipe coming of it going to the inlet manifold

i have a few spare

Do you wanna PM me with a price?:D

[Steve M]

Strictly speaking, that part is not really needed. As long as you've got the tappet cover breather flowing well, you shouldn't have any troubles with the engine.

I removed one before so that it would look like all the emmossion points were still linked up and active for registration purposes.
One thing I would suggest for all 18RG owners is a catch can, especially when using ramflo filters with the tappet cover breather plumbed into the back of the filters.
We had a few issues with oil vapour soaking the air filters.
With a catch can with a great deal of stainless steel scourer in there to catch the vapour, we haven't had half the problem we had before.

I will add this though, make sure that the PCV system does vent correctly because if it doesn't, you lose your dipstick as it flies out of its hole and sprays oil all over your engine bay.

[Mr DOHC]

yes, and all over your very hot extractors

[rn41leroy]

hi i have 2 18rg heads cams one inlet manifold and one exhaust manifold i am goin to put them onto my 18r block which has only done 92000km since new lol i was wondering if n e one use fellors had the other stuf i would need to bolt it onto the block eg timing cover. and wat should i do bout my dizzy? im a beginer
thanks heeps leroy

[Mr DOHC]

u need an aux shaft, timing cover, block breather {not needed really}, dipstick onthe other side, u should really get an oil sender put in to the mount on the side of the motor

[Mr DOHC]

chains and guides too

[jeffro ra28]

leroy, good luck finding some 18rg pistons aswell.

[RA23]

Strictly speaking, that part is not really needed. As long as you've got the tappet cover breather flowing well, you shouldn't have any troubles with the engine.

I removed one before so that it would look like all the emmossion points were still linked up and active for registration purposes.
One thing I would suggest for all 18RG owners is a catch can, especially when using ramflo filters with the tappet cover breather plumbed into the back of the filters.
We had a few issues with oil vapour soaking the air filters.
With a catch can with a great deal of stainless steel scourer in there to catch the vapour, we haven't had half the problem we had before.

I will add this though, make sure that the PCV system does vent correctly because if it doesn't, you lose your dipstick as it flies out of its hole and sprays oil all over your engine bay.

What do you use as a catch can? and what happens when it is full? Could you perhaps use the block breather to run the oil back into the block? Can you post a pic of your PCV systen?

[Mr DOHC]

Do you wanna PM me with a price?:D


if i send it COD, and u pay the postage, u can HAVE it

[Steve M]

What do you use as a catch can? and what happens when it is full? Could you perhaps use the block breather to run the oil back into the block? Can you post a pic of your PCV systen?

1. Catch can is made from an International Roast coffee tin (small one) that has two 90degree copper plumbing elbows soldered into the lid. One for in, one for out.
The one that carries the gas intot the can extends further into the tin so that the drips don't get blown straight through into the out pipe, which can happen.
Tube goes from tappet cover to the can. Second tube goes from the can to air filter.
As stated in previous post, we stuffed a whole lot of stainless steel scourer (curly stuff, not steel wool) into the can to act as condensation nuclei.

2.Easy, that's why we used a coffee tin, you just take the lid off and empty it.
It also has a nice little flange that supports the can on the 0.8mm steel tape bracket.

3. I suppose so, but that would mean that the air coming from the block breather would blow up from the bottom of the catch can and put all the oil straight up into the out hole, thus defeating the purpose of the catch can.
It also means that we would have soldered another outlet onto the tin, which just would have been a pain in my arse.

4. Not really, no digicam and I still haven't figured out the whole hosting pistures thing, I'm sure it isn't that hard but I have a car to finish before I take on any more heavy study.;)

Here's a concept map of how the gas flows through our PCV system:

Tappet cover -> tube -> can inlet pipe -> st. steel scourer -> can outlet pipe -> tube -> engine intake.

I hope that explains it, if not, just ask more questions or PM me.

[crowncustom]

Also 18R-C pistons fit in the 18R-G with no problems at all plus 18R-C conrods work as well plus they are lighter than RG ones but make sure u use the 4 18R-C ones,not like I did and busted a piston and bent a rod:mad: plus from my own experiences with RG'S I reckon with using flat top 18R-C pistons the engine revs alot smoother than RG pistons,and it also revs harder and not as harsh as RG pistons.
Cheers Brett.

[Steve M]

Also 18R-C pistons fit in the 18R-G with no problems at all plus 18R-C conrods work as well plus they are lighter than RG ones but make sure u use the 4 18R-C ones,not like I did and busted a piston and bent a rod plus from my own experiences with RG'S I reckon with using flat top 18R-C pistons the engine revs alot smoother than RG pistons,and it also revs harder and not as harsh as RG pistons.
Cheers Brett.

Hmm, I don't really like that idea.
point 1: major compression ratio drop from upto 9.7:1 down to about 7:1. (turbo?)
point 2: the valve reliefs in 18RG(E)(U) pistons are actually taken below the level of the block's deck. 18RC flat tops do not have this relief. If someone used a head that had been surfaced, those hard to find valves would be getting very close to the pistons.

I don't see how using mixing and matching 18RG and 18RC pistons would result in a busted piston and a bent rod. A serious imbalance I would expect, but those results I would not.
I know 18RC pistons have been used with 18RG heads, most times I've heard of this it has been to drop compression for forced induction, but most times I have heard of this the pistons have been modifies to suit the different valve positions.

Thiat post surprised me and now my brain is spinning, it goes against all of my thoughts and expectations but hey, each to their own. I for one will never be using 18RC pistons in any of my 18RG engines.

[tricky]

I'm with steve on this one. The cause of the busted piston could well be independent of the parts mismatch unless the incident occured at stratospheric RPM, but that seems unlikely considering that the engine was smooth. Also, the compression would be less than desirable for NA applications. The piston is not only lower, the 18RG combustion chambers differ from the RC ones, so there is a significantly greater combustion volume. This leads to lower efficiency, less economy and poorer response.

leroy, FWIW, I have a funny feeling that my engine started life as an 18R-C. I say this because it is a diverse mish-mash of mis-matched parts (lol). My block has the dipstick on the correct side and the oil filter mounting block is correct, but other than that, almost every part of the engine is from a different model... 18RC dizzy (now 88270), 18RC/88270 rods, 88210 head, 88270 cams, 88270 aux shaft, 9.7 pistons, 88251 timing cover, no block breather... Ya get my drift. Basically, I'd only convert an 18RC to RG spec using 18RC parts if I needed one in a hurry and I was short a few parts. Otherwise, I'd spend the time to source proper bits.

[Mr DOHC]

also, the rods may be lighter {not sure} but they are weaker

[RA23]

Thanks for that Steve.
3. I suppose so, but that would mean that the air coming from the block breather would blow up from the bottom of the catch can and put all the oil straight up into the out hole, thus defeating the purpose of the catch can.
Yeah, of course. didn't think of that. I was just wondering where that breather is originally linked to. I'll look that one up in the manual.

[scootaphill]

an 18RC Block has the numbers stamped "normally"
an 18RG Block has the numbers stamped "UPSIDE DOWN"

just a quick way to pick the difference in blocks

cheers

[ra_28]

Hmm, I don't really like that idea.
point 1: major compression ratio drop from upto 9.7:1 down to about 7:1. (turbo?)
point 2: the valve reliefs in 18RG(E)(U) pistons are actually taken below the level of the block's deck. 18RC flat tops do not have this relief. If someone used a head that had been surfaced, those hard to find valves would be getting very close to the pistons.

I don't see how using mixing and matching 18RG and 18RC pistons would result in a busted piston and a bent rod. A serious imbalance I would expect, but those results I would not.
I know 18RC pistons have been used with 18RG heads, most times I've heard of this it has been to drop compression for forced induction, but most times I have heard of this the pistons have been modifies to suit the different valve positions.

Thiat post surprised me and now my brain is spinning, it goes against all of my thoughts and expectations but hey, each to their own. I for one will never be using 18RC pistons in any of my 18RG engines.

The 18rc pistons do not have to be modified for the 18rg valve tust me i used a set hypoid 18rc pistons in my first turbo 18rg motor and they have no clearance problems only when i broke a timing chain the valves hit the pistons.

[jeffro ra28]

after a head and block surface grind you may loose .040". Will they still clear?

[scootaphill]

Does anyone know the
a: M.O.P (Maximum opening point) b: "Lobe centres" or c: "Phase" All the same thing

OF

1. STD 18RG
2. STD 18RGR
3. STD 18RGEU

any ideas on what lobe centres you would run on 272/288 or even 304 cams?

food for thought

[The Witzl]

Phill,

I dont have any tools to measure this, but i certainly do have a spare set or two of 18RG cams - 88250 set and 88251 set.
I'll be fudged if i know what the differences are, but i'll certainly try to borrow a cam dial or something to measure them.


Comparing the 18RC and 18RG rods - i would certainly not be using 18rc rods myself. They just look so pissy and weak compared to the 18RG ones. I'll get some side on comparisons to go with the comparison pics earlier in this thread.
I'm with Steve on the 18RC piston usage too...




Now here are some more reference pics :)

Here is a direct comparison of the EFI thermostat housing and the carby one. The EFI one is on the right....

http://www.twincam.org/forums/uploads/post-20-1138582439.jpg


This is my engine at the moment, part the way through putting on the EFI manifold....

http://www.twincam.org/forums/uploads/post-20-1138582545.jpg

[scootaphill]

looking good Karl...are you going to use the original fuel pump as a lift pump to a swirl pot then high pressure from there to rail?
if you dont already have the fuel line that screws into the rail, i would be looking for it now... its a pain in the ass to get to with the plenum and throttle body in place...
as for the MOP, Phase ect im just trying to get more out of her b4 i sell her back to simon;) so i can put the price up "evil laughing is over coming me"
cheers

[Norbie]

Speaking of fuel pumps, I need to upgrade my fuel system for the forthcoming uber-RG. My current setup is a VL high-pressure pump feeding directly from the tank and into the stock fuel line, which worked OK in the past but it doesn't offer protection against surge and probably won't flow enough for the new engine when I crank up the boost.

Anyway, I have a friend who works with stainless steel every day and he's offered to make me a stainless surge tank. My idea is to try mounting an internal Walbro fuel pump inside the surge tank, with the pump hanging off a bracket from the top of the tank, much the same as pumps are mounted in OEM fuel tanks. Then all I have to do is replace the VL pump with a low-pressure lift pump and I'll have a nice neat high-capacity surge-resistant fuel system. :)

Anyway, if my internal-pump surge tank idea works out OK I might get a few of them fabricated. Would anyone else be interested in such a device? *looks at Karl*

[The Witzl]

i'd be interested - IF i had a boot tank and not an under-floor drop tank!

I have an RA28 you idiot!! :P


I'm actually working on some ideas and designs for internally mounting and baffling my spare RA28 floor tank... Either that or just go all out and make a custom drop tank!

<duffman>

OH YEAH!

</duffman>




Currently my fuel system incorporates a nice external lift pump, VL bosch pump, and surge tank (not povo-spec like my AE71)..... see the pics below for the new system:

http://www.twincam.org/forums/uploads/post-20-1138599852.jpg

http://www.twincam.org/forums/uploads/post-20-1138599902.jpg

[TurboRA28]

Yeah i'd love to get rid of the tank/pump from the boot area in the 28.. Damn lack of space for surge tanks.

[The Witzl]

joel - i think some measuring, designing and test-fitting of some custom drop tanks is the go mate :)

[scootaphill]

Q. 1 Does the swirl pot need to be that big?
Q. 2 Is there a formula for working it out?
Q. 3 If it doesnt couldnt you make a trick smaller one to fit in engine bay?

this would help solve the "room in the boot" issue and you'd have less high pressure fuel line to worry about.

[The Witzl]

phil,

that is just a plain old surge tank buddy, and there is mainly just speculation and heresay on what volume it should be - yes you could have a smaller one, but i would rather just have a good intank pump :)

[SRacin]

volume you can make some educated guesses about based on injector duty cycle, fuel pump flow rate, if the return goes back to the tank or not, and what your estimate longest right /left hander your ever going to go around etc etc..or 1.4 mile or whatever your into.

[The Witzl]

WOW!!! I just scored from ebay a freaken awesome TRD and performance book for Toyotas.... including HEAPS of TRD part numbers and bits for 18RG engines :D

I'll be posting numbers soon :)

[Damo82]

Bloody brilliant Karl, I'm in the middle a rebuild so they might come in handy :D

[Mr DOHC]

ebay aus karl????

[The Witzl]

darn tootin'

also have found a supplier for 18RG valves, i'll be contacting them soon to find out the exact brand, material, sizes available etc....
i bought from them a set of 38.5mm exhaust valves for $70 :)

anyone interested?

[Mr DOHC]

i'll stick with my stainless steel's thanks:P

[tricky]

Speaking of fuel pumps, I need to upgrade my fuel system for the forthcoming uber-RG. My current setup is a VL high-pressure pump feeding directly from the tank and into the stock fuel line, which worked OK in the past but it doesn't offer protection against surge and probably won't flow enough for the new engine when I crank up the boost.

Anyway, I have a friend who works with stainless steel every day and he's offered to make me a stainless surge tank. My idea is to try mounting an internal Walbro fuel pump inside the surge tank, with the pump hanging off a bracket from the top of the tank, much the same as pumps are mounted in OEM fuel tanks. Then all I have to do is replace the VL pump with a low-pressure lift pump and I'll have a nice neat high-capacity surge-resistant fuel system. :)

Anyway, if my internal-pump surge tank idea works out OK I might get a few of them fabricated. Would anyone else be interested in such a device? *looks at Karl*

Hey, norbie. I may well be interested. Heck, if you didn't get extras fabricated, I'd just be going through the whole prototype phase myself in about a year when I switch over to megasquirt + quads.

Karl, did you track down an EFI thermo housing? Yours is significantly more shiny than the one I'm gonna send you!

As far as valves are concerned, I recently sourced some cheap exhaust valves. They are Shin Ichi, 38.5mm, PN AK5520. They were supposed to cost $24 each, but they ended up being significantly cheaper (a bit of a stuff up from the machinist!). Oh, and Witzl, I saw those valves on e-bay. I was gonna bid on them when I realised one of my valves was cracked, but I saw a the name of a bidder I thought was conspicuously toymodsy.Besides, I got my four valves for a bit less than $40! I've seen 18RG valves come up on e-bay at least half a dozen times, so there is probably someone bringing them in from Japan.

My only problem with my new valves was that the lash was a PITA to get right. The seats were cut before they were installed, so one would envisage that the shims would need to be ground... Instead the clearances grew to 0.6 - 1.0mm. I don't think they were made with particularly tight manufacturing tolerances.

[The Witzl]

tricky,
mate i still want that efi thermostat housing please. The shiny one there is cracked around the water temp gauge sensor and may very well leak when used for the first time :(

Those valves i got are indeed the ebay ones, which are actually from Fours n More in SA. Not sure on brand though...

Mr DOHC,
thats a nice story, hows it going for you? :P


Now.... TRD Part No. Teasers!!

TRD High volume oil pump, 18R-G -> 15100-RA051
TRD rod bolts, 18R-G -> 13265-RA051

will post more soon :)

[SRacin]

woohoo cool! So when we going to see the pdf scanned version? :) :)

[TurboRA28]

I might have a 18rg efi thermostat housing if needed.. I've got something under the house and could never work out what it was from.. Looks very similar to your pic.

[Steve M]

Karl,
Are TRD high volume oil pumps still available?

I just checked and that part number does not come up in the global list anymore.
2M, 3M and 4M engines use the same oil pump gear but they are no longer available either.

If anyone can find a TRD oil pump somewhere, count me in, I want one.

TRD valves part numbers have the RA051 suffix for intake and RA052 for exhaust.

[The Witzl]

i've just sent a list of the more interesting TRD parts to Mr Revhead in NZ to see what he can dig up for us. Will be interesting to see if anything is available.... but i doubt it will be :(


Whilst on the topic of Mr Revhead, i've just ordered from him a whole bunch of timing chain tensioners and guides. Not too bad prices if you need the stuff, but still pricey. Damn old tractor engines!

Here is the list of parts, and curent prices i was quoted (NZ$)
13559-88270 - $154 - no.2 chain guide, in. side
13563-88250 - $124 - no.2 chain guide, ex. side
13540-33014 - $40 - No.1 chain tensioner
13561-34010 - $42 - No.1 chain guide
13652-88280 - $49 - no.2 Top chain guide (between cams)
13550-88270 - $175 - No.2 Chain tentioner

Total = NZ$584.00


NOTE: please dont take these prices as reference. They are what i was personally quoted and i dont know if thats what he would normally do.

[Mr DOHC]

Mr DOHC,
thats a nice story, hows it going for you? :P



great:D

no replacing valves after 20,000k for me

[The Witzl]

you shouldnt have to replace valves after 20,000k's unless there is something seriously wrong with the way the engine is tuned / set up i would have thought!!

stay tuned kids... i have soo much info to add to this thread, just need to collate it all and write it up....

[Mr DOHC]

yeh i know

[h3ff44]

well i know absolutly nothing about these engines but i do know that my old man had one in is old round head ligt corona... and would pill 0-100 in just under 7 secs.
he said he had pace makers that he had modified on the first cyclinder as it wasnt that great.. he worked out the tuned length of what it should be.

he also had a good well tuned set of webers... ive tried to get info outa him but he gets all grumpy about it when i ask..
i was hoping he may have a book somewhere with calculations of the tuned length exhaust etc... but havent come across it yet.

kinda pointless post but i thought i would share it.

what kinda times hae other people managed to pull with these motors?

[jeffro ra28]

Karl, does Mr Revhead sell these 18rg items regularly?

[Steve M]

I don't see any timing chain tensioners (that one bolt swinging thing) on that list Karl, is he not able to source them?

I've heard that a guy in Adelaide is getting some custom 18RG guides made up, full set, 100 items of each guide.
I will keep an ear to the group and a wallet full of cash and I'll see how I go. I only need the timing chain tensioner slipper, or, slipper C as it is sometimes called. I want two brand new ones.

[Steve M]

Oh, hang on, does Mr Revhead refer to the timing chain tensioner slipper as the no.2 chain damper intake side? The part number matches and the 18RGEUs did use a slightly different design so the generation number is right too.

If this is correct and your getting some Karl, put my name down for two of those suckers.

Jeffro, did you read this post? If we can get them through this guy we won't have to go to the US for them and it will cost less.

[The Witzl]

Guys, i'll have a chat to Mr Revhead today.... i've already got myself and Norbie down for some timing chain parts, but it's not really worth group buying with the new under $1000 customs duty exemption.

Im pretty sure you can each individually sort it out with him directly, will let you know during the day.


Steve
i picked out these p/n's myself from an online EPC that is no longer available... damn russians! i picked an RA63 carina from memory with 18rgeu.

..... and just cos i love you so much steve, i drew you a picture explaining my terminologies....

http://www.twincam.org/forums/uploads/post-20-1138742045.jpg

[Mr DOHC]

ah, the old WSoD

[jeffro ra28]

I have an adobe file of all toyota t and r series engine part numbers and also all 1st gen celica part numbers.

Send $5 and i can make you a CD copy of it.

[Steve M]

Steve
i picked out these p/n's myself from an online EPC that is no longer available... damn russians! i picked an RA63 carina from memory with 18rgeu.

..... and just cos i love you so much steve, i drew you a picture explaining my terminologies....

Feeling the love, cheers Karl for the picture, but the descriptions don't match those with the part numbers. This is stretching my tiny little brain.

basically,
13559-88270 - $154 - no.2 chain guide, in. side
= HINGED GUIDE, yes?

[SRacin]

I also have the hard back version of the ta22 toyota genuine parts catalgoue, factory repair manuals (chassis/engine/body). xe1x and xe2x factory parts cataglogue. RT40 body/chassis/engine/transmisson. xe7x collision repair guide (basicaly body/,mechanical part numbers only and critical dimensions. plus a few other odds and ends.

[The Witzl]

Sracin - the RT40 book, i want it.


SteveM,
yeah mate, got it in one :)
I call the funky chain runner / slipper / whatevers you call em; "Chain Guides", because they guide the path of the chain.

What you call the vibration dampeners, i call "tensioners" - because they set and keep the tension in the chain.

[SRacin]

Sracin - the RT40 book, i want it.


I know of other engine/transmission book around. And ive seen another chassis book around. I borught my rt40 set for 20 bucks.

I'll ask around,.

[SRacin]

Although not factory toyota ones
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Car-parts-accessories/Toyota/Manuals/auction-46412522.htm
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Car-parts-accessories/Toyota/Manuals/auction-46463431.htm
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Car-parts-accessories/Toyota/Manuals/auction-46527447.htm
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Car-parts-accessories/Toyota/Manuals/auction-46553492.htm
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=44624948
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Car-parts-accessories/Toyota/Manuals/auction-43887664.htm

[ra23celica]

This is probably a well known fact by now, but I was told by an 18RG owner here in Perth that for the upper timing chance tensioner you can use a 4M item which you need to do a slight modification to in order to make it fit.

[SRacin]

yes they are the same as the old generation 1 18rgs, i knew there was something i was supposed to take of that 4m i took to the dump on sat..dam it..

[The Witzl]

new information is always good :) I'll try to get my hands on a 4M tensioner and compare it to various 18RG ones i have, and post pics of course.

Oh, some 18R-GE wiring diagrams coming soon :D

[YelloRolla]

i'll stick with my stainless steel's thanks:P

I hope that you have fitted bronze guides OR had the valves coated or 20,000km will be more than they need to become trash.

Off topic reply, but technically important.

[Steve M]

new information is always good :) I'll try to get my hands on a 4M tensioner and compare it to various 18RG ones i have, and post pics of course.

While you're at it, see if you can find an oil pump.
Early model M motors use the same rotor and possibly other parts as 18RGs.

[Mr DOHC]

I hope that you have fitted bronze guides OR had the valves coated or 20,000km will be more than they need to become trash.

Off topic reply, but technically important.


u mean because they can lock up, if so, i have had some mods done to overcome that

[KE30_18r-gu]

Nice topic we have here.

New member to this board, like to interduce myself. I had a 77 liftback celica that went to car heaven (rusted like a bucket). But we pulled out the 18r-GU that was in there to put into a KE30 corolla (which we have done) The corolla is not registered (burnout car) and we have to do a rebuild on the engine.. :(

What I have is a 18r-GU that was on gas. Now running Twin .45 Webber. The engine is a little tired and just need a new head gasket. I have found a company in NSW that have 18r-G head gasket and wanted to know if that will do. Is there any difference in the 18r-G and 18r-GU gasket.

Thanx for your time
Adam

---------------------
KE-30 Corolla
18r-GU 88250 2lit Twin .45 Webbers

[The Witzl]

adam - yeah mate they are the same

the differences between an 18R-G, 18R-GU, 18R-GEU are things like pollution controls, piston compression ratio, carbies/EFI... that sort of thing.

[The Witzl]

ok a few more pics....

Here we have a complete and running 18R-GEU. As per completed earlier this week :D

http://www.witzl.com/ra28/efi-swap-007.jpg




The 28....

http://www.witzl.com/ra28/efi-swap-008.jpg


Intake manifold part ID's

[IMG]http://www.witzl.com/ra28/intake-parts.jpg

[RA23]

i picked out these p/n's myself from an online EPC that is no longer available... damn russians! i picked an RA63 carina from memory with 18rgeu.

I put an RA23/28 manual online a while ago, includes 18RG:

http://www.se-technology.com/RTA23-8.pdf

[RA23]

Hi all,
after 2 years of hoarding (and ending up with 4 RG's in various states) I finally got the 18RG in my RA23.

580
581
582

So why do I post this here? My next project will be to replace the points with electronic ignition. I have an electronic dizzy from an 18RGEU with a bent shaft, but I decided to get rid of all mechanics and go ford (sorry) EDIS.
The hoarding part is over and the next step is to design and install the trigger wheel.
If anyone is interested I will share the 18RG specific info through this thread (or set up a new one).

Edwin

[Norbie]

I'm pleased to announce that I'm shortly going to re-join the exclusive club of working 18R-G owners. :) Thanks to o_man_ra23 I'm now in possession of a fresh high-comp 18R-G, which will power the Orange Eyesore while I wait for the uber-engine to be built. I got about halfway through installing the engine today, but it was hot and I gave up.

http://www.norbie.net/images/New18RG_1.jpg

http://www.norbie.net/images/New18RG_3.jpg

http://www.norbie.net/images/New18RG_1.jpg
http://www.norbie.net/images/New18RG_2.jpg
http://www.norbie.net/images/New18RG_3.jpg
http://www.norbie.net/images/New18RG_4.jpg
http://www.norbie.net/images/New18RG_5.jpg

Can't wait to take it out and do some skids. :D

[Steve M]

Witzl, I'm pretty sure that the question mark on your photo of the GEU intake plenum is part of the idle up mechanism for airconditioning.

[KE30_18r-gu]

Thanx Witzl. Going to order what I need and get this thing running again.

Have a question for anyone that might know this. I have notice that most the 18r-g* on here and other sites have a different rocket cover than the one I have. I am interested to find out what it is off (18r-GE ?) Nothing gained, nothing lost?

http://220.239.203.169:20080/celica/RIMG0166.jpg

Thanx for your time
Adam

---------------------
KE-30 Corolla
18r-GU 88250 2lit Twin .45 Webbers
Edit: picture urcl

[The Witzl]

Steve, i realised exactly what you just said whilst driving to work this morning thinking about putting the aircon on the car :)

It uses a VSV to open the big air bypass port on it - kind of like an amplifier :P

[thechuckster]

Norbie: that's a very clean looking workshop floor you have there under the eyesore - would you like some used diff oil (mixed with unknown waste solvents) and wheel-bearing grease to return it to it's native oil-stained finish? :D

[scootaphill]

Karl if you have the EPC you could use the pics to determine where it goes and what it does via part number etc...

or i could go have a look... *walks to shed* mine connects to vac advance on dizzy..

cheers

ps howd the wiring turn out?

[Mr DOHC]

Norbie: that's a very clean looking workshop floor you have there under the eyesore - would you like some used diff oil (mixed with unknown waste solvents) and wheel-bearing grease to return it to it's native oil-stained finish? :D


or failing that, just buy my commodore, it'll make it messy as fuck

[Trent-KE30]

Hey Adam, per your KE30 18R-G how hard was the conversion?, got any more pics?

First time ive seen this done,

Trent

[Gleno28]

Thanx Witzl. Going to order what I need and get this thing running again.

Have a question for anyone that might know this. I have notice that most the 18r-g* on here and other sites have a different rocket cover than the one I have. I am interested to find out what it is off (18r-GE ?) Nothing gained, nothing lost?

http://211.28.224.115:20080/celica/RIMG0166.jpg

Thanx for your time
Adam

---------------------
KE-30 Corolla
18r-GU 88250 2lit Twin .45 Webbers


Hey Adam, your cover matches the one i had on the 18RGEU (88270 head), but... also matches one off a 18RGU (88253 head), but i'd say later gen 18RG's, i'll see if i can get some pics up

18RGEU
http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/2881/18rgeuoldengine4pf.th.jpg (http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=18rgeuoldengine4pf.jpg)

18RGU
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1867/18rgucomplete0hj.th.jpg (http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=18rgucomplete0hj.jpg)
Glen.

[Norbie]

Norbie: that's a very clean looking workshop floor you have there under the eyesore - would you like some used diff oil (mixed with unknown waste solvents) and wheel-bearing grease to return it to it's native oil-stained finish? :D
What you can't see is the floor under where the Supra is usually parked. I have oil stains aplenty, don't you worry. :D

[The Witzl]

The cam covers with the "DOHC" raised text and oil cap on the intake side are from 18R-GEU's..... it's not at all uncommon for cam covers to be swapped around though, as some people actually seek out the 18rgeu cover for it's "DOHC" label.


Phill....
that's pretty weird how your's connects to the vacuum advance on the dissy - in fact that's just all wrong by my understanding.
Vacuum advance dissy's are supposed to be connected to a vacuum port that only gets vacuum when the throttle is JUST cracked open. It shouldnt have vacuum all the time.... otherwise at 5000rpm when you lift the throttle off, you are at max mechanical advance due to the weights, and then suddenly it advances another 10 or so degrees on TOP of that max advance..... not cool!

I have used one of the 2 ports on the throttle body as these are just in front of the butterfly, as described above :)

I'll try to draw up my conceptual understanding of the vacuum system...

http://www.twincam.org/forums/uploads/post-20-1139375034.jpg

[scootaphill]

This is not really the place but...

What sort of valve to piston clearance (on overlap at 10deg) are you guys running... im moreso intrested in the INTAKE valve to piston...

im also intrested in the availability of stronger after-market springs

cheers
phill

PS karl my dissy has two vacum hoses. if 1 is closest to the body and 2 in furtherest from the body the formentioned vacum line is connected to number 2...

[Mr DOHC]

i run the springs by performance springs, PN RR4,about $150 a set, can hold my valves at over 8000,
they are doubles too

[scootaphill]

thats great but what piston to valve are you running on the intake?

ps wahst happened to your avator

[ta22gt]

Does anyone have or know where i can get a copy of the 18r engine manual.The older green covered one that covers 18rgs.
Thanks Nev

[tricky]

Yep. They pop up on e-bay frequently. Probably one a week or so.

[Steve M]

Phill....
that's pretty weird how your's connects to the vacuum advance on the dissy - in fact that's just all wrong by my understanding.
Vacuum advance dissy's are supposed to be connected to a vacuum port that only gets vacuum when the throttle is JUST cracked open. It shouldnt have vacuum all the time.... otherwise at 5000rpm when you lift the throttle off, you are at max mechanical advance due to the weights, and then suddenly it advances another 10 or so degrees on TOP of that max advance..... not cool!

I used to think that, but it actually doesn't do any damage.
There is only high vacuum (and dizzy advance if on high vacuum side) when the engine is getting bugger all air, which means bugger all chance of detonation if that's what your concern is. It could possibly mean cleaner emissions on decelleration.

We tried setting it up with the vacuum advance plumbed in on the airfilter side and the port side of the butterfly and the port side won.
having it on this side bumps up your ignition timing at idle, which leads to better combustion, thus leading to a far smoother idle.
When running lumpy cams, this really does help.
Much better fuel efficiency at idle too, not that you'd nitice it when the right foot is flat to the floor for the rest of the time.

18RGEU dizzies have two vacuum points on the dizzy. As far as I can tell on mine only one of them actually does anything, the other can be sucked on or blown through and the air just flows on through it.

[filthman]

I've just reassembled my 18RGU for my KE35 but have struck a problem. I got a top timing chain that has the exact amount of links in it as the chain I took out, and its slightly shorter because its new and not stretched. Its only about 3 - 4 mm shorter (the old chain wasn't that bad)

My problem is that in attempting to fit up the new chain it is tight to the point where the tensioner wont screw in. The engine has gone back together the same way it was taken apart. I'm not sure whats going on with it at the moment.

Does anybody know how many links there are in the top chain? Or does anyone have a top chain lying around that they could count the links on it for me??

The engine was running great until the oil pump seized and broke the pump shaft. Sean Malony fortunately had a good pump for me. While the engine was apart I did a short motor rebuild - standard specs with a balance (it should still be quite a bit better then the old 4K:) )

If anyone know feel free to email of call me :)

Thanks
Cam
filthman@tpg.com.au
0423 021 523

[Mr DOHC]

whats the PN and brand of the chain, does the chain links fit snugly over the gear

[The Witzl]

Cam (filthman),

Have you loosened off the tensioner before screwing it back into the head? It's also possible that you have droped a link on the auxiliary shaft gear that links the upper and lower chains..... i know i've done that a few times and cursed profusely!!

The body of the tensioner actually adjusts the tension, being held by the short locking nut that mates to the tensioner's rubber booty thing. Unlock the lock nut and unscrew the main body - this will move the tensioner plunger outwards :)

[filthman]

From memory the part number is a DZ98 (definately ??98). I've had that rear adjuster completely off the tensioner and it would only screw in on first thread (the tensioner has two thread seperated by the oil feed gallery). I considered a dropped link on the bottom gear as soon as the problem became apparent, however with it all setup and turning the engine over (by hand of course) there is no indication of this. Yes, the chain sits nicely over the gears.

A few hours of seraching on the old forums didn't give me any help either.

At the moment I've got an extra link in it. It makes the chain a bit long, and as a result the tensioner has to be adjusted right up to make it work.

Thanks for the suggestions though.

[barned01]

i have an old chain in the shed did you wan't me to count the links in it???
there are 10 links between the first top gear and second, i remember that for sure...

[Steve M]

It's also possible that you have droped a link on the auxiliary shaft gear that links the upper and lower chains..... i know i've done that a few times and cursed profusely!!
A common problem, and a pain in the arse.

My new top chain has the part number 3DR98-2, meaning 98 links and double row I would imagine.
Have you actually counted the number of links in your chain?

Another issue that I found a couple of days ago could be with the tensioner its self.

Often people break parts of these and then replace the big nut-like adjustment part with a nut that has some tube welded onto it. I have one of these at home and it has much less scope for adjustment than the original design, less that half the total travel when not oil filled.

Other than a problem with the chain length or guide/tensioner design issues, I can really only see the problem being a dropped link, the system just ins't normally that complicated.

I hope you can find an answer soon so you can get it back on the road. I also plan to do a KE35-18RG conversion in the future.

[n0rto]

Hey guys i've got an 18r-geu in an ra40 with microtech which i plan to turbo in the near future. Was just wondering if anyone has got a turbo on an 18r-geu yet cause very interested to see what power they make with a turbo and what sort boost you can force into them

[Mr DOHC]

heaps fo ppl have turbo RG's, hp numbers range from 220rwhp to nearly 400 on stock motors {the 400 one didnt last long tho, nice one alex :p }

[KE30_18r-gu]

Just some useful information. Rebuilding the 18rg

Had a little trouble finding headgasket for it. Came along a website in NSW that can supply most of the toyota import gaskets.

http://www.swmotorsport.com/

Good prices and good service

Adam

---------------------
KE-30 Corolla
18r-GU 88250 2lit Twin .45 Webbers

[Mr DOHC]

why did u have problems getting a HG, lots of company's do them, ACL for one

[scootaphill]

how far do you need to bore out the RG to get 2.2lt?
Is it 92mm?

cheers
phill

[tricky]

Yep. 92mm will get you to a shade under 2200cc's.

[scootaphill]

Thanks for clearing that up

cheers

[jeffro ra28]

you can also go as far as 92.5mm...

[Norbie]

Don't try it on a turbo engine though!

[Steve M]

Hasn't Cliff Hansen done a 92.5mm bore blowing in 21 pounds?

[thechuckster]

i think cliff got the capacity with some clever selection of crank, rods and pistons?

update:
i was wrong - Fast Fours article, date/year unknown:
-16R Rods
-22RE dished (92.5mm) (resulting in 6.8:1 comp ratio)
-eccentric ground 18R crank to add 3.5mm stroke
total engine capacity lifted to 2.4 litres.

note: he is running a very efficient W2A intercooler and boost is a maximum of 21psi.

[The Witzl]

YUKKY!!!! How the hell could you drive something with such low compression??

[Mr DOHC]

keep it on boost :P

[The Witzl]

i'd prefer something with some compression thanks.... EWW!!

My 18R-GTE will end up around the 8-9:1 compression ratio, much better :)

[jeffro ra28]

Besides, what difference is it going to make if you take an extra half a millimetre out of the bore? There is well enough there to have a 93mm bore with a turbo.

I really do wonder how the hell he ground the crank to gain 3.5mm of stroke

If he had done it the conventional way of just offset grinding the crank he would have had to use +.320" bearings and ground the crank .180" below its original size.

[Joshstix]

I guess 16R rods have a smaller big end.

[Mr DOHC]

they dont, cause u r supposed to use 16R rods with 22r crank

16/18/20/21/22R big end bearings are all the same

[jeffro ra28]

Its a mystery then. Unless its a custom billet crank. which would have cost 5 g's. Or dramatically resized the 16r rods.

[Norbie]

Or the magazine article was completely wrong. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

[Mr DOHC]

Or the magazine article was completely wrong.


dont be silly, that never happens:p

[Mr DOHC]

cliffs car DOES use the 22r/16r combo

[jeffro ra28]

Is there a way i can contact Cliff? Regarding RA28 matters. Please PM if so.

[Norbie]

Yeah, show up to a Toyota Car Club of Qld meeting. :)

[The Witzl]

will cliff cover my travel expenses?

[Mr DOHC]

i'll see if he has an email

[Omegaman]

Since you guys on this forum have assisted with my ra28 rebuild, I found an old book I have with some info that may help.
specs for 2tg & 18rg
rebuild parts no's for 2tg 18rg
trd engine bearing applications
oil pump part no's
mikuni carby part no's & jetting recommendations (stages1,2,3,4)
trd flywheel applications, variety engins Eg 18rg
transmission ratios std part no's & trd No's w50, t50 series
plus theres other info not sent eg nos applications guide1600cc to 3000cc with efi
bore x stroke hp @rpm ,specs on most engines
ignition converions to electronic with part no's 18rg 20r 22r .t series etc.
trd header applications & part no's most models
trd high perf clutch apps with part no's
trd brake pads and part no's most toyota's
trd suspension front & rear most models Including celica 71-77 78-81 gt-st82-85 gt-s83-85
shocks high pressure and low pressure shocks . & adjustable
And performance suppliers mainly from the US
If there's an interest in any of these items, drop me a line.
and more how too's
regards


http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/1043/10rj2.th.jpg (http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10rj2.jpg)

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/6499/23vh.th.jpg (http://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?image=23vh.jpg)

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/5454/38uk1.th.jpg (http://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?image=38uk1.jpg)

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/5631/48lw.th.jpg (http://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?image=48lw.jpg)

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/6069/52go.th.jpg (http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=52go.jpg)

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/7049/62iy.th.jpg (http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=62iy.jpg)

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/7603/70gs.th.jpg (http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=70gs.jpg)

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/5492/81pz.th.jpg (http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=81pz.jpg)

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/4236/97mg.th.jpg (http://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?image=97mg.jpg)

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/6333/917yx.th.jpg (http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=917yx.jpg)

Ive noticed they might be hard to read because I've shrunk them a bit.

[KE30_18r-gu]

hey Omegaman.

can you email me the pictures. As you said they are a little small to read. Thanx

neti01@optusnet.com.au

Adam

[Norbie]

I can host the full-size pictures if required.

[jeffro ra28]

sounds good norbie!:)

[Omegaman]

norbie I've sent you the toyo info,to do as you will.

Also adam (ke30) I've sent them to your email add too.

They are interesting.

[scootaphill]

How much does an RG weigh? just out of intrest

cheers
phill

ps karl howd your wiring turn out... hope my diagrams helped :)

[Norbie]

Thanks for that Omegaman.

For those who want to see the full-size pics, click here (http://www.norbie.net/ToyotaParts/). Dial-up users beware, some of them are over 1mb.

[Turdinator]

Omegaman on page six before it talks about Mikunis it talks about webers.
I don't suppose it has jetting recommendations for them as well?

[Grant]

While I should really put this in the Wanted section seeing as it is an 18RG thread only it seemed a good place to ask about anyone with a set of second hand leads for an 18RG. They are for a friend in the US.

[Omegaman]

Turdinater, there no info on jetting for webers.
I have attached previous pages 75, 76 to go with page 77.
See How you go, it does suggest how easy it is to change the jets.


http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/5311/webers8ea.th.jpg (http://img107.imageshack.us/my.php?image=webers8ea.jpg) http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/6746/webers18cd.th.jpg (http://img116.imageshack.us/my.php?image=webers18cd.jpg)

[Norbie]

OK, so the vacuum advance on my new 18R-G isn't working. I've been experimenting with a timing light and hooking up the diaphragm to different parts of the manifold (including parts which definitely have vacuum) and it makes no difference whatsoever to the timing. If I manually push in the plunger the timing advances plenty so the advance mechanism is working fine, it's obviously the diaphragm which is stuffed.

Anyway I pulled the diaphragm assembly off the distributor hoping it would be fixable, but it's a sealed unit and there appears to be no way to get inside it without destroying it. This means I need a new one - but where from? Does anyone know if other Toyota distributors have a compatible vacuum advance mechanism? I'm going to the wreckers on the weekend to see if I can find anything similar (22R perhaps?) but I was hoping someone might know. Help a brother out, my Celica is so slow at the moment it's almost dangerous to drive!

[thechuckster]

i have an 18R dizzi (complete with a pertronix hall effect pickup and igniter) with a functioning advance unit if it helps - will swap for information on:
-rotation of crankshaft (has been so long i forgot) when looking at it from front of car
-markings on 18Rx pulleys (which if the 3 is TDC)
-whether the keyway in the 18R cranks is vertical at TDC or offset towards the drivers side
:D

[The Witzl]

chuck

1. facing engine, clockwise
2. facing engine, furthest left
3. vertical, IIRC


norb... i'll get to that vac advance now. Lucky i'm nice hey?

[Norbie]

I'm feeling the love, Witzl style!

[Steve M]

The 18R and 18R-G vacuum advance mechanisms are different in vacuum resolution and also fitting depending on which model 18Rg dizzy you have.

We have an 88230 dizzy here that uses a vacuum advance that has too small a diameter where it mounts into the dizzy casing for later model one to fit. You'd have to modify either the housing or the vacuum advance. (the casing on this one uses an RT-40 dizzy cap and the casting is similar to that model dizzy in other respects and also internally.

Later models (88251, 88270) use a more regular sized advance unit (the models that are suited to the 22R electronic conversion).

The 88230 one that we have acts from 0mm/hg upwards with the action levelling off at about 150mm/hg.
The 18R one starts acting at about 150mm/hg and levels off at about 330mm/hg.

I do original 88251 and 88270 ones that I could measure up to see where they work. I would have to find them though, which is not such an easy task these days, we put everything into boxes and stacked them...bad move.

Hopfully this helps, but if you really want the specs of the later model ones. let me know and I'll tack it down for you.

[Norbie]

Thanks for the info!

I'm not 100% sure which dizzy I have, I just bought the engine and don't know its history. Perhaps o_man_ra23 would care to enlighten us?

[Steve M]

If you post the part number of the diaphragm I could check what I've got and how it compares to other types.

[Steve M]

Norbie, still on the topic of the vacuum advance, here's a link to where I just put up the specs from the 1977 edition of the 18R series engine repair manual.
It pretty much backs up what I said first time, only it states what the figure i measured were supposeed to be.

http://www.toymods.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4080

[scootaphill]

has any one ever cc the combustion chamber of the head while its been apart? id be curious to see where its at

cheers

[YelloRolla]

If I remember correctly it is 70cc. Witzl will confirm, his brain is younger than mine (prolly sharper too).

[The Witzl]

yep, 70cc or 71cc

you've got my green book with that written in it IIRC jason :)

[scootaphill]

what model head was that? did you happen to cc the block as well?? and if so what pistons were used?

thanks, now i have something to compare to when the time comes!!
phill

[The Witzl]

that's a stock 88250 head which had just been rebuild.

[Damo82]

Guys, does anyone happen to have a photo of the exhaust side of an 18RG and 18RC head?

I am heading out to check a set of extractors that "may" be for an 18RG and I was just looking for some reference material. Unless anyone knows an obvious way of determining the difference between 18RC and 18RG extractors.

I know 18RC has the inlet manifold above the exhaust manifold but that isn't going to help that much.

Cheers

Damo

[Norbie]

Port spacing is pretty different so you shouldn't have a problem telling them apart.

18R-G: O O O O

18R-C: O O O O

[Damo82]

Thanks Norbie, you are a god. +rep for you :)

Damo

[Steve M]

If I remember correctly it is 70cc. Witzl will confirm, his brain is younger than mine (prolly sharper too).

When we measured the 88251 and 88270 heads, they both came out to an average of 72ml on the dot.
Maybe that's one more way that they dropped the compression on the later models.

[scootaphill]

great work karl and steve... you guys didnt happen to cc the blocks as well :o

when my motor is apart i'll be sure to cc my block with the 22r/e pistons as a comparison

cheers

[YelloRolla]

If you know which head you have (wither the 70cc or the 72cc) and you know the Comp Ratio of the engine, go to this site
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/calccr.htm
and type in the fields that you know it will then tell you what the dome = in cc

Don't miss the bit at the beginning where you place a 2 in to convert to metric.

[Steve M]

... you guys didnt happen to cc the blocks as well :o


Nope, there wasn't much point as there was no deck clearance.
I use the calculators from this guy, I've mod'd them a little, but find them most useful.
I changed the dish volume to dome volume and swapped the +/- symbols.

http://www.superjamie.net/garage/

Plus, down the bottom is a link to great picture of a KE35 4WD.

[The Witzl]

Well just a little more info to push this thread back into life :)

Toyota Genuine Head Gasket, 18R-G, (p/n not known yet), $59.00 retail, available in Australian warehouses.


Ingram Alternator P/N RXA-430 is a close fit high output replacement for 18R's
... it's 80A, from a landcruiser with 3F engine, internally regulated. YOu just have to change the pulley to a "1A" style and use washers to fill the extra space in the pivot feet spacing.
---- i'll be down at pick'n'payless this weekend to do some testing :)

[The Witzl]

Just for reference sake... here's my clutch fan setup in my car, as it is right now :)

http://www.witzl.com/ra28/clutch-fan.jpg

[river]

Hi,

You gonna put a fan shroud around it?

seeyuzz
river

[Mr DOHC]

hello ppl, i'm back

i went to cliffs house the other day and drooled for a ges at his '28, it uses the GENUINE 18RG crank, 16R rods, 22r coaster pistons which have been flycut.
The crank has been fully welded and offset ground to give 3.5mm extra stroke, it is back to original journal size too, so it can be ground down if necessary too.

[rn41leroy]

hi all,
i think i may have asked this question before: i have some 18rg stuff, sum of the following i need to no if anyone can help me out of sourcing the parts to complete the engine:
-head no. 1- 88250
-head no. 2- 88210
-inlet 88230
-exhaust 88251
-cams no.1 88258
-cams no.2 have sprocket 88210
can anyone help me out on the best build and does anyone have the parts to build a complete engine
thanks to any help received:P leroy

[scootaphill]

WOW!!! I just scored from ebay a freaken awesome TRD and performance book for Toyotas.... including HEAPS of TRD part numbers and bits for 18RG engines :D

I'll be posting numbers soon :)

come on karl where are they if i had any rep power i would neg rep you just for teasing us all LOL

cheers

[river]

Hi,

Here's some nice diagrams of the wonderful and dependable 18R-G. I made the images big so you can see them better. This is the 1st of 2 posts, due to the 10-image per-post limit.

Overview
http://quick.imageupload.com.au/images/1349.jpg

Cylinder Head
http://quick.imageupload.com.au/images/1351.jpg

Cylinder Block
http://quick.imageupload.com.au/images/1350.jpg

Gaskets
http://quick.imageupload.com.au/images/1353.jpg

Cylinder Head & Cover
http://quick.imageupload.com.au/images/1354.jpg

Clylinder Block & Oil Pan
http://quick.imageupload.com.au/images/1355.jpg

Timing Cover & Rear-end Plate
http://quick.imageupload.com.au/images/1356.jpg

A few more images in the next post.....

seeyuzz
river

[river]

Hi,

I'm baaaaaaaack. As stated, here's the 2nd post of 2 with a few more diagrams of the venerable 18RG.....

Mounting
http://quick.imageupload.com.au/images/1357.jpg

Crankshaft & Pistons
http://quick.imageupload.com.au/images/1358.jpg

Camshaft & Valves
http://quick.imageupload.com.au/images/1352.jpg

Timing Chain & Damper
http://quick.imageupload.com.au/images/1359.jpg

I got more stuff for the 18RG, including inlet, exhaust, carbies, cooling system, starter and alternator. So, if there's anything you want put up please let me know.

I may have some stuff on the 18RGU/18RGUE engines, but I'll get back to you on that tomorrow sometime when I get a chance to check my stuff.

Oh, got all the same stuff for the T, 2T, 2TB, 2TG, 18R and 18RE engines - but as this is ostensibly and 18RG thread I kept them out.

seeyuzz
riuver

[jeffro ra28]

I love your work River. Im glad there is someone that could be bothered to spend the time to enlarge and edit these so that they are forum freindly.

[Steve M]

Those photo's are always good to look at, but in true toyota fashion the forget some of the details.

For parts identification:
- That's an 18R-C water pump, the little side tube is too small for an 18RG one.
- I'm not too sure about those conrods, they look like the 18R-C ones drawn in the green book. I've never seen a set of 18RG rods looking like that.

River, would you happen to have an exploded diagram of the top tensioner? With part numbers?
I'm rebuilding mine with a some changes and part numbers would be great to know.

[river]

Hi,

I have more detailed diagrams of the water pump and they 18RC and 18RG water pumps are the same. The only difference I can see is the off-shoot pipe on the 18RG bends backwards a bit, while the 18R engine shoots off straight.

The 18RG water pump has twin pulleys whereas the 18R has one pulley. The actual pump, pump housing, fan assembly are the same between the two engines.

Remember, I'm talking about the early build 18R-G, 18R-GR and 18R engine here. So, maybe there was a difference with the 18R-C, 18R-GU and 18R-GUE engines. I'll need to check my RA23/28 info to get that information and see if these variants have a different pump assembly.

The 18R pistons are a different shape on the top as opposed to the 18RG pistons. Don't forget, these pics are from an EPC and are presentative as opposed to being superbly detailed engineering blueprints.

I can get the part numbers, but I have no further exploded diagrams on the engines for the chain tensioner.

seeyuzz
river

[Steve M]

it's the little offshute pipe for the thermostat bypass that I think is different to the water pumps I have. Mine have a larger diameter one than is shown.

Also a quick question for anyone who has an early model block, what is that two-bolt + big hole flange on the exhaust side for. The one right near the coolant drain boss.
I don't reckon any of our blocks have that.
That block also uses a different bottom timing chain guide to the later model ones that I've seen. One of those early model guides came in a timing kit for my brother's old 18R-C but wouldn't fit anywhere as the block was too new.
That top chain damper is also a different design from the later ones. They are interchangeable but they have a different shape adjustment cap on the end.

[barned01]

i was looking at those pics when it occurred to me.
has anyone tried modifying the bottom dampener that connects to the block (the flat one) to fit on the upper timing chain dampner between the 2 cam gears (in the head).
the bottom dampeners are readily available and cheap from parts suppliers like sprint autoparts.
that would just leave a way to find a replacement dampener for the curved one that goes from the head to the block and for the tensioner dampener

[Steve M]

I reckon you'd have to weld onto the bottom damper to get it to fit on the top as there is not enough metal there to do the job. The welding would screw up the nitrile.

I have found that with a little careful bending work the $23 18R-C tensioner dampener (slipper) can actually line up better than the original 18RG ones.
I've had some new tensioner plunger parts made up with big wide mushroom heads so that it won't dig into the rubber lump on the back of the slipper.
I haven't run it in the engine but I have test fitted it and it looks to be quite good.

Price of my conversion:
$ 24 for chain dampener/slipper
$ 60-70ea for the new tensioner piece (that's what it will cost next time)
$ 9 for a bag of new circlips (couldn't source the original style in the right size so using more normal design)
$ bugger all for the o-ring I might as well replace while I have got it apart.

Total <$110
Saving $100 on the last quote I got in Adelaide (that's if it were still available)

Verdict: worth a shot I reckon

[The Witzl]

nice work steve..... now get some pics!!!!

[classiccelica1]

quick querey for the witzl
i bought a ta23 couple of months ago, with 18RGEU
read your post on the different models of 18RGs I am a bit confused because mine has
88270 head but twin mikuni solex carbs on the side.
your post states that on the 18RGEU carbs were ditched in favour of fuel injection
what engine do I have?
Rick

[TA-022]

efi has been ditched for that horny carby sound many a time.:D

[Steve M]

Another thing that happens regularly is head swapping and rebuilding from multiple engines.
My engine came with an 18R-C block and oil pump, Mid-era 18RG conrods, 18RGEU pistons and head, thermostat housing, cams and timing case, Early-era 18RG manifold, 18RGU carbies and tappet cover.

[thechuckster]

query about timing marks on twin pulley 18R/18RG crank pulleys...

would this be a fair assumption of what they mean?
TDC - ?? degrees - 12 degrees

See picture for what i'm looking at:
http://static.flickr.com/47/125052400_a6fe01f2c4_o.jpg

Is a close up of this pulley/trigger setup:
http://static.flickr.com/27/95711657_13549ea733.jpg

cheers and tia,
Charles.

update: On the basis of witzel's suggestion i'll take it as:
-TDC - ?? - 12 degrees and ignore the middle mark
it's not like i'd need to refer to a mark at 5 degrees...

[The Witzl]

chuck.... dunno about the 18R-C crank pulley, but on the 18R-G crank pulleys, those marks are 12deg BTDC and 5deg BTDC.



Onto things in my garage...... turns out the lack of compression on cylinder 4 was thanks to a slightly bent exhaust valve.
Word to the wise - dont rest your head on the ground with any valves open, they bend REAL easy.... :(

I'll get some pics up in a few minutes of what's happening...

[river]

Hi,

Did you really do that? Rest the head down in a way that bent a valve? :mad:

That's almost a -ve rep!!!!!

I hope Toobs gave you a bit of a slap for that. I know I will when I see you next. :P

seeyuzz
river

[The Witzl]

meh - i got spares.... lots of spares.

and new valves too :P

If you are bored right now River, come over... you can see the insides of a couple of 18R-Gs. I'm rebuilding one now with 9.7:1 pistons.
.. you can get your books too :)

[river]

Hi,

Should of told me a few hours ago. I got a belly full of wine now and, coupled with my advanced years, sleep beckons.

However, if you need a hand during the week to get your Yellow Power Ranger (I think her name was Trini :) ) ready for Dubbo, then let me know.

seeyuzz
river

[tricky]

Word to the wise - dont rest your head on the ground with any valves open, they bend REAL easy.... :(


Oops! When I rebuilt mine, I made a point of having the cams out whenever the head was off the block. For an extra 10 nuts to undo, it's cheap insurance! I also made a point of not resting the head on the gasket surface after I got it ground. I accidentally knocked it over at one stage. I can tell you know, expletives weren't enough to vent my rage!

The only good point is at least now you have the priviledge of pulling it apart. They really are a good engine to work on, except for the removel valve collets that is.

Karl, in this pic:

http://www.witzl.com/ra28/clutch-fan.jpg

It looks like you have done away with the corrosion prone circulation pipe in favour of a piece of rubber hose... I wish I thought of that when my reconditioned engine started pissing coolant out of a rusted pin hole... I used silicone goo and thoughtfully placed hose and clamps:rolleyes:

Chuck, with your ms trigger wheel, did you retrofit one from another car, or did you have it machined up? If so, how did you go about this? ...I'm gonna go and read your members rides section!

[The Witzl]

Tricky,

yeah you are right - i too had the metal pipe corrode on me, so i got the shits and threw it out!
A couple of quick points with my water hoses there though - that water pump housing is different to all the others i have, in that the "off to the side" outlet (for the corrosion-prone metal pipe to thermostat bypass) is heaps smaller (around 5-7mm diam).
All the other water pump housings i have have a side feed line the same diam as the corrosion pipe (~12mm IIRC)...
... hence why i have used the wee 5mm line for the TB coolant thingy (im yet to work out it's purpose in life) and then used a heater hose T-piece to supply the thermostat bypass line.

Hope that explains that.......



Now... some pics as promised!


i make garage big mess!

http://www.witzl.com/ra28/rebuild-011.jpg

http://www.witzl.com/ra28/rebuild-010.jpg

.... mmm, doesnt look to be seated right....

http://www.witzl.com/ra28/rebuild-009.jpg

Have a guess which one is bent??

http://www.witzl.com/ra28/rebuild-007.jpg

old engine block... not really that old, or in bad shape....

http://www.witzl.com/ra28/rebuild-012.jpg

.... new engine needs some work, like maybe some assembly.

http://www.witzl.com/ra28/rebuild-016.jpg

........ and why am i rebuilding the bottom end?
-> to use these phat puppies!!!

http://www.witzl.com/ra28/rebuild-001.jpg

[Steve M]

Back on the topic of 18RG Harmonic Balancer timing marks.
The tri-pulley 18RGU one we've got has a TDC mark and one of the other two marks is actually about 9.8 degrees.
I imagine that every version of the engine would have had different timing to suit different compression and cams.

The best way is to calculate it. (I knew there was a reason we did Pi in school).
Take the circumference (mm) of the pully where the marks are and divide that by 360 and them times that by the distance between the TDC mark and the other marks (also in mm).

I realise most people would know how to work that out, but I put my bit in there anyway.
If the answer doesn't look right, it probably isn't. I did comprehensively fail year 12 maths in 2001 and have rarely done maths in the five years following that.

[TA-022]

I did comprehensively fail year 12 maths in 2001 and have rarely done maths in the five years following that.

^^^:cool: here here!

[The Witzl]

Steve - you'll actually find that the 9.8deg you calculated was an error of measurement of the circumfrence and spacing of the marks (perhaps due to the length of an arc vs a straight line)..... that mark should be 10deg BTDC exactly.

I have both types of 3-belt crank pulleys at home.... the tripple timing mark and dual timing marked, and have worked out the timing marks for them both.

Dual Marked - TDC and 10deg BTDC
Tri-market - TDC, 5deg BTDC, 12deg BTDC.


.... i comprehensively aced 3 unit and 2 unit maths in 1999, then followed it up with distinction average in 1st year engineering maths and physics at uni.

Now i play with toys and push buttons on a computer.

[Mr DOHC]

1 + 1 is 2 [/end barney the annoying dinosaur voice]

[Major Clod]

Just reading back through this thread about the Upper Timing chain tensioners being similar to 4M, 3TGTE etc... Can anyone confirm this?

My new upper tensioner snapped in two today, and I would really like to get one ASAP so I can get this engine running, everything else is ready to go!

If anyone near Brisbane wants to sell me a spare this weekend, please let me know!

[Major Clod]

Well, after calling a zillion wreckers today, half of them were closed, the other half said they hadn't seen a 4 or 5M powered car in their yard for the last ten years... pffft whatever, lazy pricks dont' want to help.

Anyway, out getting new gearbox seals and a spigot bearing for the RG, when I thought stuff it I'll go to my local wreckers anyway. I asked the guy again in person, he said nope don't have anything. Thought stuff it so I walked down the yard, fourth car down the toyota isle was an MS123 Crown with a complete 5ME. Took out the Upper Tensioner and its exactly the same as the one that was in my 18RG... Guess these guys just don't think it is worth a walk to check out their cars for a $15 part.

So yes anyway, just like to say that an M series upper timing chain tensioner does fit an 18RG if anyone needs a replacement.

[ra23celica]

You answered your own question before I got back to this thread mate, yes, 4/5M upper tensioners do fit the 18RG.
Cheers,
Mitch.

[Steve M]

I just found something that I haven't read in here yet.

The valve reliefs in 18RG pistons vary in vertical depth depending on what era they came from.

88270 8.3:1 pistons have the deepest part of the inlet valve relief 1mm below the deck and the deepest part of the exhaust valve relief .5mm ABOVE the deck level.

88233 9.7:1 pistons and also 88252 0.5mm OS 9.7:1 pistons have the deepest part of the inlet valve relief close to 3mm below the deck and the deepest part of the exhsut valve relief 0.5m BELOW the deck level.

So it's not just the compression that makes later model 18RG/U/EU less suitable for big cams, it's also their valve reliefs.

On another note, for those who I have previously sent out our home-made 18RG original camshaft profiles to, the next installment is nearly ready, I just have to fix up the email friendly version and I will send them out.
It will still be an Excel spreadsheet.
So far on my "send to" list I have
ScootaPhil, Mr DOHC, The Witzl, Jeffro RA28.

If anyone else wants to know what their 18RG camshafts are doing, and when they are doing it, PM me your email address and I'll send them through to you.

The cam data that will be included are:
88210 set
88231 set
88250 set
88251 set
88270 set
Our mystery set of 30/70 regrinds
Wade 137 grind (298 degree advertised)
Wade 133-5 grind (310 degree advertised)

Please note that this is not professionally done and they are only useful as a guide.
Also please note that profiling the last three sets of cams took somewhere around 12 hours, but hey, now we know that we can run 298 degree cams on stock early model pistons with a little tweaking. We also now know that what a cam is advertised as is not always what it actually is and often aftermarket grinds are not centred on the original timing marks.

Does anyone know of any other 18RG cams that are out there?

[thechuckster]

... I'll go to my local wreckers anyway. I asked the guy again in person, he said nope don't have anything. Thought stuff it so I walked down the yard, fourth car down the toyota isle was an MS123 Crown with a complete 5ME.
sorry for the post hijack :o

.. which wreckers was this? did the Crown still have the rear swing arms?

[tricky]

Steve, I'll PM u my e-mail addy for that data!

Other 18RG cams? I'm running Wade 773A regrinds. 288adv, 246 at 50thou, 405thou lift, 110 deg phase angle. They're pretty mild, but they give a poke! They pushed out 83rwkw with 45DCOEs and 9.7:1 pistons and stuffed rings. Should be a bit more pokey with quads!

[Steve M]

For those that I sent out the cam info to, just note that all the timing data is as the cam was ground. We zeroed the cams to the stock TDC timing slot in the 12:00 position.
The graphs supplied were based on this information, so the Wade cams and the mystery 30/70 grind cams would actually need to be set up differently to what the graph says.
The graphs can be modified and the correct timing info is supplied in the spreadsheet.

[tricky]

Thanks for that data! That's gold:D

[Screamn_Sleeka]

On another note, for those who I have previously sent out our home-made 18RG original camshaft profiles to, the next installment is nearly ready, I just have to fix up the email friendly version and I will send them out.
It will still be an Excel spreadsheet.
So far on my "send to" list I have
ScootaPhil, Mr DOHC, The Witzl, Jeffro RA28.

If anyone else wants to know what their 18RG camshafts are doing, and when they are doing it, PM me your email address and I'll send them through to you.
s.


Hook a brudda' up?

Will need all the info i can get to beat the pethetic 2.0ltr n/a record for toymods...

siddy1200@gmail.com

Thanks, Si.