5MGE into MA61 (changed from 7MGE)

[RObErT_RaTh]

I need your help guys, I'm trying to weigh up whether it is worth getting an old 7M, re-doing the head/gasket, replacing a few other misc things and using that or whether I should grab a 2J and shove that in their instead. It will be for my MA61 supra.

I can get the 7M conversion done by an acquaintance for $2k if I supply engine (~$500 but then I need more for re-doing head and other things). 2J might cost me $1200 with ecu/loom but then I'd need more things like a W58? I'm not after massive power or anything turbo, but I would like a bit more than the crusty SOHC 5ME puts out :rolleyes:

Tell me the pros and cons and which way you think I should go and remember, it's always on a tight budget. Thanks guys

[teamdrinkalot]

Don't get a 7MGE as their head issue is not worth solving. The amount of money you spend on the 7 to fix the ongoing head problems is far better being spent on the 2J

[RONA]

The amount of money you spend on the 7 to fix the ongoing head problems
Its only an ongoing problem if its not fixed properly the first time at which point you must question said workmanship on the car.;) .

Depends on your driving style really do you like an engine with a punch in the guts off idle, or do you prefer to rev it out:cool: .

That being said, the 2jzge is a newer motor, has more power out of the box so you are really only ever playing catch up with the 7mge. They still aren't a bad engine though.

[Yian]

This is me. I own an MA61. With a 7m, I still own an MA61 :D I like to keep it within the family.

[JustCallMeOrlando]

Go the 2JZGE. Aside from a smidge more bottom end, the 2JZ owns and only has more potential. If your car is a manual, all you'll need is a clutch/bellhousing/flywheel etc. Yes it will cost more, but it will be a better result.

[ViPeR_NiPPleX]

2JZ-GE. Do eeeeeeeet.

I was in the same situation. I could go 7m and not worry about engine mounts, bellhousings, etc. But I realised that the 2jz is a newer motor, and once I got it sorted, if I want to go turbo.... 1jzgte or 2jzgte are not too hard to swap. Also aftermarket parts availability is slightly better. Even oem parts availability is better.

[BlackSupra]

wayne just pulled 137rwkw out of his 2jzge and that is factory with bolt ons!!!

Want to make that power from a 7m and you need to open the thing up with some serious work!

Here is my website when i did the conversion a few years ago:

http://www.geocities.com/ifli4u/project2j.html

[PlacentaJuan]

go the 2j!

from economical point of view i think they are more fuel efficient too, so you would make up for the extra cost in the long run.

[wilbo666]

Vote 2J; nuff said :)

Cheers
Wilbo

[RONA]

go the 2j!

from economical point of view i think they are more fuel efficient too, so you would make up for the extra cost in the long run.
Before microleb I got 10L per 100km on the 7m on city driving too. Post microleb it gets 12-13L per 100kms, but I think I sink the boot abit more and it could do with some fuel being taken out.

[CrUZida]

The microleb economy should own factory economy if its tuned right.

Problem is you CANNOT tune that on the dyno.
You need to do it on the road.

[joecoolmk2]

i think the 2jz is the go. where's the poll:confused: :D

sure the 7m would be easier to do, but the 2jz has similar or better economy with more power. nuff said;)

[RObErT_RaTh]

i think the 2jz is the go. where's the poll:confused: :D

I thought of that after I posted it :( Try to edit and it won't let me make poll.


go the 2j!

from economical point of view i think they are more fuel efficient too, so you would make up for the extra cost in the long run.

Going by the parts on this page, http://www.geocities.com/ifli4u/project2j.html , it will prob cost me $3000 and that's just parts and using my W57. I have a heavy duty clutch and new slave cylinder, would prob replace the master though just incase. Anyways, 3k plus 2k for the actual labour itself is a lot more than I have right now :( If it's gonna happen it would probably have to happen a lot further down the track when I can have a second run about car and have the MA61 off the road for a lot longer.

[joecoolmk2]

Anyways, 3k plus 2k for the actual labour itself is a lot more than I have right now :( If it's gonna happen it would probably have to happen a lot further down the track when I can have a second run about car and have the MA61 off the road for a lot longer.


sounds like you've answered your own question then?:P

[joecoolmk2]

so why don't YOU do some/most/all the labour? it wouldn't be that hard if you can weld, undo bolts, and use your noggin good;)

[RObErT_RaTh]

so why don't YOU do some/most/all the labour? it wouldn't be that hard if you can weld, undo bolts, and use your noggin good;)

Cos I'm nub with engines and I can't afford to have my car off the road for that long and me not know what I'm doing. It would probably be so dodgy and break down on me in a week (if it even starts) and would take 3 times longer than it needs to :(

On the other hand, I could buy a cheap daily, get my car off the road, clear out the garage, start learning and getting my hands dirty, pay for parts as I go, get some help from my mates, and maybe become part of the twojay crew :P

...I just can't make up my mind except for the fact that I have to get rid of the 5ME somehow :confused:

[joecoolmk2]

you gotta learn someday somehow

just get someone else to do the wiring aargh the wires!:mad:

[RObErT_RaTh]

you gotta learn someday somehow

True, but parents are overseas at the minute and my sister and I have to be self sufficient ie we are paying for everything. Doesn't give me as much for saving as I'd like :(

Oh and I've done electronics at tafe, and I build (and cable neatly) computers for a living. I know it would take awhile but I'm upto the challenge of the wiring. It's more the mechanical stuff I'd need help with I think

[joecoolmk2]

mechanical stuff isn't all that hard. it's 99% common sense.

[CLG]

Yep, the wiring would be the biggest issue, but not an insurmountable. All round, the 2JZ is a better option, all things considered.

[takai]

http://www.toymods.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11331
If you need a cheap 7M.

[RObErT_RaTh]

mechanical stuff isn't all that hard. it's 99% common sense.

It's just a matter of me not having the correct tools/materials for the job :(

Takai, I'm way ahead of you mate ;) Discussions were in progress just before the engine was even taken out

[Alchemist]

Can't speak for the 7M, but the 2J has torque down low, and revs out quite nicely. Again with bolt ons I'm making 134RWKW. Just need to pull 3KW from somewhere ;)

[1983supra]

Go the 2J, as Glen said I pulled 137rwkw with bolt on items. With a set of extractors designed for the top end you woud hit 145 or more fairly easily which is 1UZ territory, you would have to strap a turbo to a 7M to come anywhere near.

[RObErT_RaTh]

Well now it looks like the guy that was going to be doing the conversion for me has pulled out because he thinks even a 7M will be too much work even after all the things I've told him.... He thought by cressida motor I meant the older 5MGE (pffft.....) even though I said many times 7M and linked him to 7M threads and details.... Ohwell I guess there is one good thing out of this, it gives me plenty of time to save and look at my options and if I decide to do a conversion a year from now maybe I'll go down the 2J road as I might have enough time and money to do it then. Thanks for all your opinions guys it's given me a lot to think about ;)

[ViPeR_NiPPleX]

Consider it a blessing in disguise ;)

[takai]

Heh, and now i dont have anyone else to compete with when i buy my 2JZ

[RObErT_RaTh]

Consider it a blessing in disguise ;)

Yeah you're probably right but I still want to do something now..... Maybe I could attempt a 5MGE swap myself? How difficult would that be? It would give me a good chance to learn a few things and what's involved in a conversion and I would be better prepared for a 2J conversion in the future.

[Alchemist]

I think the money you'd spend on a 5M-GE conversion would be better spent towards bolt ons for the 2J when you get it....It's just not worth it unless you have a 5M-GE lying around and are gonig to do the work yourself....

[RObErT_RaTh]

I think the money you'd spend on a 5M-GE conversion would be better spent towards bolt ons for the 2J when you get it....It's just not worth it unless you have a 5M-GE lying around and are gonig to do the work yourself....

I believe I am able to get one cheap (they have one lying around) and I said the idea was to do it myself and learn something.

[takai]

Yeah, and there will soon be 7Ms lying around, which probably wouldnt be much more. :D

[CrUZida]

It doesn't matter whether it will be a 5MGE, 7MGE or 2JZGE conversion, EVERYTHING will be the same (in terms of conversion)

The only things that differ, is that you will need to buy bellhousing/flywheel/clutch for the 2JZ.
All motors will require exhaust mods
All motors will require some fiddling with heater hoses/radiator hoses.
All motors will bolt straight up.
All motors will require the same amount of wiring (unless you get a gen1 5MGE which uses the 5ME loom)
PowerSteering lines will bolt on to the M blocks, but with RA65 stuff it will bolt on to the JZ blocks as well, so that no more difficult.

[RObErT_RaTh]

Wouldn't a 2J be starting to push the W57 to it's limits a bit? Wouldn't I need to upgrade the GB to a W58?

Also in regards to the gen1 5MGE, how would I find out what gen it was? Cheers

[Draven]

I wouldn't concerned about the 2j busting the w57. Norbie was running a w57 behind his 2jz-gTe, and still wasn't breaking them terribly regularly.
torque kills boxes, and a 3L n/a is not going to stress a w57 to its limits

[RObErT_RaTh]

Well that is good to know if I ever go down that path, thanks mate ;)

[CrUZida]

Wouldn't a 2J be starting to push the W57 to it's limits a bit? Wouldn't I need to upgrade the GB to a W58?[/QUOTE]
Ahh you have much to learn Kemosabi.
The W58 is no stronger than a W57 of the same generation (alloy plate vs steel plate).
If they are both alloy plates (as all pre 1989 W5x's are) then they are identical strength.
Also in regards to the gen1 5MGE, how would I find out what gen it was? Cheers
Twin alternator/fan V-belt and Vacuum advance dizzy means its Gen1

All of the pre 1984 ones are gen1's, all imports obviously.
There aren't many around, but there are a few.
I've come across 3 or 4 without looking

[RObErT_RaTh]

Cheers for the info mate ;)

[RObErT_RaTh]

Okay, it looks like I'll probably be trying to tackle a 5MGE conversion myself. I know it's been done to death and talked about on the old forums so I have gone and done a fair bit of searching and reading last night and I 'think' I might be able to pull it off.... I hope

[BlackSupra]

soft.

If you are going to go to the effort of a conversion, at least go the 7m.

[RObErT_RaTh]

soft.

If you are going to go to the effort of a conversion, at least go the 7m.

I wouldn't be able to do it my self in the current time frame. Atleast with the 5MGE I have a chance at being able to complete it properly and I will learn a LOT along the way. Plus it's not gonna cost me anywhere near as much.

[RONA]

I wouldn't be able to do it my self in the current time frame. Atleast with the 5MGE I have a chance at being able to complete it properly and I will learn a LOT along the way. Plus it's not gonna cost me anywhere near as much.
So delay the 7m or 2jz conversion until you can, you know the 5mge is going to be tossed in the future its just a stop gap conversion that further prolongs putting a better motor in.;)

Unless the 5me goes boom it seems silly.

[ViPeR_NiPPleX]

So delay the 7m or 2jz conversion until you can, you know the 5mge is going to be tossed in the future its just a stop gap conversion that further prolongs putting a better motor in.;)

Unless the 5me goes boom it seems silly.

Agreed. It's just money wasted imho. I'd spend the dosh you have for the 5m-ge on a 2jz-ge/w58 bellhousing+flywheel, or save for the complete motor... spend some time cleaning it up and prepare the loom for ma61 goodness.

[RObErT_RaTh]

It was gonna cost me $2k (mates rates) to get the 7MGE done. Now to do it myself it will cost ~$500 for engine etc plus misc so maybe $1000 and a bit? If I go 2J then that's atleast $1000 right there for the engine, I can't do it myself so we are looking at a LOT in labour costs and on top of that I wont have any window of opportunity to get it done.

The reason I can do a conversion at the moment is because the parentals are overseas and I have access to another car, as soon as they come back I lose that and I'd have to buy some temp crap box just so I could get around. I'm looking for a project that isn't going to cost me an arm and a leg and I think it will be a good learning experience for me.

If James can do this conversion in a day/night then I think I should be able to pull it off in just over a month with a bit of help.

[lumpy]

Good luck - I'm sure it'll be an improvement over a 5m-e anyway.

To think I gave my old 7m-ge away! Though it would have needed a fair bit of work to get it using less than 4lt of oil per 400kms! :P

[JustCallMeOrlando]

May I ask how the 7MGE is so much harder?

[ViPeR_NiPPleX]

I don't think the 7m-ge is significantly harder... the wiring would be slightly more involved, but thats not too hard to sort out. Exhaust stuff/engine mounts/gearbox/etc would be the same. Power steering, is that on the same side?

[ViPeR_NiPPleX]

If James can do this conversion in a day/night then I think I should be able to pull it off in just over a month with a bit of help.

I had help with that conversion however.. and the engine was ma61 ready.... but it's possible with preperation.

[takai]

Well, the engine is out and there, you could always get started straight away :P

[RObErT_RaTh]

May I ask how the 7MGE is so much harder?

I've never done a conversion before and from what I've been asking and reading it will be harder than a 5MGE and I don't think I could personally do it.

lumpy, lol at the oil :P

[STR8 2.8]

5me-5mge is a piece of piss conversion. its bolt out bolt in basically. just need a new p/s hose made up and a few other bits and thats about it. theres not much to it. easy weekend swap. but i agree with what others have said...save your money.
do the 2j, sure its a little bit more complicated but take your time and there is no reason why you cant do it yourself.

[RObErT_RaTh]

Power steering hose and a few other bits? Care to elaborate on the few other bits? :P

I know I need the throttle cable from the MX73 because the MA61 is a tad too short I believe.

[Yian]

Dude. 7mge :) You doing something at TAFE regarding electronics or wiring aren't ya? I have no knowledge whatsoever at wiring. Ask James (Viper_Nipplex). I compeltely and utterly suck at it so much, I actually almost set my car on fire. But it took me 3 hours to wire the 7mgte up :P Mechanical wise, it should be pretty much bolt in I would say? MX83 7mge front sumped?

[RObErT_RaTh]

Yes they are front sumped ;) I used to do electronics at TAFE but it's the whole mechanical side of things I think I might struggle with a bit. For example on the 5MGE gen II's I will need to somehow get a mechanical dizzy to work with that. I have no idea how I'm supposed to hook my 5me dizzy upto the 5mge. And this is supposed to be the easy conversion, there are no doubt harder unforseen things I would have to do with a 7MGE swap.

The 7MGE was only going to be done because someone else was going to do it for me. Now that's not happening I have to do this myself and I just don't want to spend all the time and money on a 7MGE then find out I can't do it and I won't have anyone to help me put it in :(

Lots of people on the old toymods forums did the conversion with success and that's why I want to try it. If it falls through I haven't lost much money but with a 7MGE it could be a lot more money wasted if I fail.

[Yian]

Mechanically with a 7mge, being front sumped, would be dead set easy. Take out 5me, put 5me engine mounts on 7mge, and put 7mge in.

Getting the air con and power steering to line up and work may take a curse or 2, but all in all shouldn't be too hard. I was lazy. I piffed my air con in the bin.

[jonra23]

If you are able to do a 5mge swap you are going to be able to do a 7mge swap, especialy in a month.

regards
jon

[Draven]

regardless of your M series engine, don't forget to set aside money for new head bolts and a MHG

[RObErT_RaTh]

If you are able to do a 5mge swap you are going to be able to do a 7mge swap, especialy in a month.

regards
jon

.... here we go again. I am unsure if I will even be able to complete this swap! If I can't do it, I've wasted well under a grand with a 5MGE. If I try and fail with a 7MGE that's a lot more money spent on my part and I can't risk for it all to be a waste. I'm doing the 5MGE, nothing now is going to change me to the 7MGE at the current point in time with money and time restraints. And this is a month of working a couple hours each night during the week. I work full time.

Can I just get some responses now from people that have done the swap and have any detailed tips/pointers on exactly what needs to be done? Thankyou

regardless of your M series engine, don't forget to set aside money for new head bolts and a MHG

Noted ;)

[takai]

Dude, i would be more than happy to give you a hand if you get stuck with the 7M conversion. It will be mch easier to do on a budget over the 2J mainly due to the extra cost of the bellhousing for the 2J.

Im sure Joel and Jesse would also give you a hand. It seriously wouldnt be hard at all. Im even guessing that the ECU will have all the markings on ithe PCB for the pinouts, at which point its a piece of cake.

As for costings, if you go with Jesse's motor, even at the $500 asking price I cant see it being over a grand for it to be in.
The only hiccups i could see would be $190+60 for ARP studs and headgasket, and maybe $250 for a new clutch if you need one (youll know now if you do).
The new PS line for them will have to be made up for either the 7MGE or the 5MGE as they have the PS in the same spot from memory. AC is exactly the same, and you will need to regas either way if you are going to keep it.

[jonra23]

To get away from a regas on AC, remove AC compressor from motor whilst still in car without disconnecting hoses, zippy tie to chassis, do do motor swap and then refit ac compressor to new motor.

regards
jon

[RObErT_RaTh]

Clutch is fine, had it replaced not that long ago and now I have an 'extreme' brand heavy duty in there. Another advantage of the 5MGE I see is that if I do change my mind later down the track (which is probably what will happen) I can still turbo it without too much hassle whereas the 7MGE can't be turbo'd that successfully.

Call me stupid, close minded, stubborn whatever but this is what I want to do. I know I won't be getting heaps of power increase but it will still be enough for me.

[takai]

Yeah, the only thing im saying is that the 7M isnt much more (I dont know how much you are getting the 5MGE for, or is it Joels?) and is likely to satisfy you for much longer than the 5M.

[BlackSupra]

Clutch is fine, had it replaced not that long ago and now I have an 'extreme' brand heavy duty in there. Another advantage of the 5MGE I see is that if I do change my mind later down the track (which is probably what will happen) I can still turbo it without too much hassle whereas the 7MGE can't be turbo'd that successfully.

Call me stupid, close minded, stubborn whatever but this is what I want to do. I know I won't be getting heaps of power increase but it will still be enough for me.

A) why would you want to turbo a 5mge (it would cost more and make less power than a 2JZGE)

B) why is turbo-ing a 7m harder? Esp when a 7MGTE is a turbo factory option and everything bolts onto the 7mge! I wouldnt do it personally but plenty of people will.

[jonra23]

A)
B) why is turbo-ing a 7m harder? Esp when a 7MGTE is a turbo factory option and everything bolts onto the 7mge! I wouldnt do it personally but plenty of people will.

Exactly to first 2 parts of B.

Sounds like assistance from some pretty handy guys has been offered.

There are plenty of strong 7mgte getting about, I believe they have a bit of a bad wrap on the head gasket issue, as said earlier in this thread, do it properly with good gasket and good new bolts and no more problem.

regards
jon

[Yian]

There are plenty of strong 7mgte getting about, I believe they have a bit of a bad wrap on the head gasket issue, as said earlier in this thread, do it properly with good gasket and good new bolts and no more problem.


Meh. That's an understatement. Every Jz owner and his dog thinks 7m's blow their gaskets every second day. Just look at the ones that were fixed well Rob. Mine's been running well for over 2 years.

[Vios-GT_07]

four pages and all i can say is paranoia mate.. everyone goes through this being a noob at an engine conversion... keep in mind there is no welding involved, it's pretty much bolt in and wire up.. plus i noticed there are a few people willing to give you a hand so there is very minimal chance of failure if any.... what exactly is on your mind? are you still weighing 5M-GE / 7M-GTE and the JZ engine?? or are u jsut weighing the effort to get it done? or the reliability??

[RObErT_RaTh]

Bit of everything Vios and yes I have got the first time conversion jitters. I appreciate the help being offered by people but I want to see if I can physically do majority of it myself as sort of a self accomplishment thing.

When I said I was going to go 7MGE everyone told me 2J wasn't much more and 7M wasn't worth it. Now I say 5MGE and everyone says 7M. I'm looking at starting small as some sort of personal project and I don't know why everyone is against it so much. I know everyone is saying, "you'll get a lot more power out of so-and-so" but that's not what this is primarily about.

Takai, yes it's Joels

[takai]

Heh, which of the brothers engine do you really want?

In all honesty, the killing factor with the 2JZ conversion is the fact that you need all the W manual stuff for it, bellhousing, clutch, flywheel etc. Other than that its pretty much the same as a 7M with the same amount of effort, just higher initial cost.

Personally i would only go a 5MGE if you could get it from Joel for $250 or so. The fact that Jesse has a 7MGE sitting there is a factor which i wouldnt sneeze at. The 7M and 5M conversions will be identical after you purchase the engine.
The question you should ask yourself is how much do you want to outlay initially.
$250 = 5MGE
$500 = 7MGE
$1250-1500 = 2JZGE

As said previously, if it was my choice then i would splash the extra bit of money and put the 7M into it, mainly because if you want to go 7MGTE later on you can put all the 7M bits to good use.

[RObErT_RaTh]

His 7MGE has done 300,000ks whereas the 5MGE has done 200,000ks. My current engine has done 200,000ks so why would I get an engine that'd one 100k more?

[takai]

You do have a point there. The km on the 7M is a bit of a killer.

Either way though, i would be more considering what you will do to it next. If you are set on doing a 2JZGE conversion in the future i would be inclined to do the 5MGE. If you arnt set on the 2JZ conversion, then the 7M would be a good compromise between providing enough power now, and not spending a metric bucketload.

[CrUZida]

7MGTE bits all bolt to a 5MGE anyway...

[RObErT_RaTh]

Takai, 2JZ or 1UZ would be my ultimate goal for the MA61 but something like that would be years away for me at the moment.

[ViPeR_NiPPleX]

regardless of your M series engine, don't forget to set aside money for new head bolts and a MHG

Lies and slander! 5M heads don't suffer the bolt torque problem the younger brother 7M's o.

7MGTE bits all bolt to a 5MGE anyway...


not all bits... but I know what you mean :)


The problem with the 5m-ge swap, although it is probably considered the easiest, it's the oldest motor varient. You'll have old worn out hydraulic lifters to worry about too which aren't terribly cheap to replace.

The problem with the 7m-ge swap, well the motor you have as the option has many kms, but a rebuild would probably fix that if you were to keep it.

Turboing either motor is pointless when a 7M-GTE is the obvious (cheap) choice. The amount of money you would waste trying to turbo the n/a motors would probably cost more. 1JZ-GTE would be my preferred option however.

Hence the 2JZ still I think comes back to being the best option if you don't want to go turbo. There is not point in having "in-between" motors swapped in. It's just money wasted and puts you further away from your final goal.

[ma61turbo]

Chris,

Putting a 7m-ge in is seriously no harder than putting a 5m-ge in. Personally I think you should save your pennies until you can afford to put a 2JZ in because whether you put a 5m-ge or a 7m-ge in, you are just putting another old motor in an old car. Difference between 200k kms and 300k kms isn't going to really matter, at that point *both* motors are probably due for a rebuild.

Seriously. If you want to do a conversion, do it properly. I can guarantee you that you won't be happy with the difference between the 5m-e and the 5m-ge. I'm also willing to bet that in 12 months time you'll be kicking yourself because a) it would have cost you more than you hoped(it always does) and b) you now can't afford to put a 2jz in and do it properly.

Do it properly or don't do it at all. Modified cars are a money pit, you don't want to make it worse by doing two conversions within a couple of years. You won't be turbo'ing either a 5m-ge or a 7m-ge, it's farking pointless and an even bigger waste of money.

EDIT: PS I can see both the 5m-ge conversion and 7m-ge conversion costing at least the same as a 2jz conversion within 1-2 years.

[RONA]

Not to mention you are making the second conversion even harder as you already had one go at butchering your wiring system lol.

[ma61turbo]

Not to mention you are making the second conversion even harder as you already had one go at butchering your wiring system lol.

Indeed. I'd hate to do a second conversion to my car, some of the wiring behind the dash is a mess!

[RObErT_RaTh]

EDIT: PS I can see both the 5m-ge conversion and 7m-ge conversion costing at least the same as a 2jz conversion within 1-2 years.

How do you see that? The 2J will cost me heaps more :confused:

EDIT: And what butchering? I'll be getting a loom and ecu with the 5MGE, is there a lot of re-wiring I don't know about yet?

DOUBLE EDIT: Alright, if I don't do a conversion now I will do it later and it will cost more because I'll have to purchase a run about... I'll need to give my current motor a full service and tune because that never got done when I got it (which was in march). And I suppose I can do some cheap simple mods to 5ME along the way. And instead of spending money on a conversion now I guess I can spend some of the money time and effort on getting a better suspension and brake setup. This way if I did do the conversion later the rest of the car would be ready for it.

[PlacentaJuan]

yea but aafter a few years you would have been paying to use extra fuel, maintenance etc

[RObErT_RaTh]

yea but aafter a few years you would have been paying to use extra fuel, maintenance etc

Can't be worse than my current 17-18L/100km

[ma61turbo]

How do you see that? The 2J will cost me heaps more :confused:

EDIT: And what butchering? I'll be getting a loom and ecu with the 5MGE, is there a lot of re-wiring I don't know about yet?

DOUBLE EDIT: Alright, if I don't do a conversion now I will do it later and it will cost more because I'll have to purchase a run about... I'll need to give my current motor a full service and tune because that never got done when I got it (which was in march). And I suppose I can do some cheap simple mods to 5ME along the way. And instead of spending money on a conversion now I guess I can spend some of the money time and effort on getting a better suspension and brake setup. This way if I did do the conversion later the rest of the car would be ready for it.

Cost you heaps more? Initial outlay perhaps, but it ain't all about that. You put in a 5m or 7m and you are putting in a motor that is likely to be at least 20 years old. a 2JZ could easily be almost brand new, as far as I'm aware the motor is still being used in new cars.

So, in one or two years you will probably be up for a rebuild...especially if you put the 7m in(I'd be rebuilding that now). Rebuilding old motors is expensive, this has already been mentioned.

Chances are you would pick up a 2JZ with far less than 100k kms on it. It'd go for a number of years without needing any major work on it, assuming it hasn't been thrashed out. So it'll cost 1.5-2k more when you put it in...but at least you won't have to take it out again to fix it!

Oh, and the absolute number one rule for conversions is make a budget that covers you if everything goes wrong...and then double it. That's how much you need for a conversion. Maybe triple it in the case of a 5m or 7m.

Been there....done that. Not again thanks.

[Draven]

Chances are you would pick up a 2JZ that says it has far less than 100k kms on it.

fixed for you :)

[RObErT_RaTh]

Anyone read the double edit? You've all warned me against it so much now that I don't want to do it.

ma61turbo, I would not feel comfortable doing a 2J conversion so yes it would cost me a crapload in labour :(

[ViPeR_NiPPleX]

research! ask if you can watch/help others with an engine conversion.... its really not as hard as you think, but definately get yourself a new motor.

[Draven]

you need to PM all the toymodders in VIC with any 7m or ma61 or engine conversion experience, and set a date, with the clear stipulation that beer and a bbq will be provided.
You'll find that toymodders motivated by beer and food can work wonders, even when half drunk (such as Joorsh's 2jz-gte conversion, the first half of which was done by J, stitt, Ed n me, while consuming lots of beer and pizza)

edit: and Witzl must get a special thankyou for mid-coitally helping us find pressure plate bolts when we rocked up at his house with beers in hand.
And toobs, for ridiculing us and Witzl

[ViPeR_NiPPleX]

....why VIC?

[Draven]

SA, vic... one of those underprivelleged states :P

[ViPeR_NiPPleX]

heh, gay pride.

[RObErT_RaTh]

I'm sorry but I'm not about to shove in a 7M with 300k on the clock. I'll stick with the 5ME for now and just fix up other parts of the car in the lead up to a possible conversion down the track. No point having a faster car if the brakes/suspension suck.

[Draven]

stock ma61 brakes are fine (engineering-wise). they're fine for emergency stops from 100km/hr... once you're going a lot faster than that, or on a track where tyhere's repeated hard braking, it's time for an upgrade.
Braking from 180, and only getting to 100 before serious brake fade kicks in is scary, mmkay?

[RONA]

stock ma61 brakes are fine (engineering-wise). they're fine for emergency stops from 100km/hr... once you're going a lot faster than that, or on a track where tyhere's repeated hard braking, it's time for an upgrade.
Braking from 180, and only getting to 100 before serious brake fade kicks in is scary, mmkay?
Mmm repeated heavy braking dowhill cooks em too fast.:o

[RObErT_RaTh]

stock ma61 brakes are fine (engineering-wise). they're fine for emergency stops from 100km/hr... once you're going a lot faster than that, or on a track where tyhere's repeated hard braking, it's time for an upgrade.

Exactly why I want to upgrade. I want to be able to go the track days and things and not risk an accident because of crusty brakes.

[ViPeR_NiPPleX]

Exactly why I want to upgrade. I want to be able to go the track days and things and not risk an accident because of crusty brakes.

budget for some new wheels, you want to fit some bigger stompers under them :)

[RObErT_RaTh]

I like the look of the stock rims and if I will get a noticeable difference from ebc pads and slotted rotors then I don't see why I would change them. I think the current calipers are going to be enough for the 5ME at the moment.

[ma61turbo]

haha, yeah, ok, my point still stands though..newer engine = less kays

[RObErT_RaTh]

haha, yeah, ok, my point still stands though..newer engine = less kays

Duly noted ;)

[ma61turbo]

I like the look of the stock rims and if I will get a noticeable difference from ebc pads and slotted rotors then I don't see why I would change them. I think the current calipers are going to be enough for the 5ME at the moment.
Stock rims are cool...but if I have to replace em with bigger ones to make sure my car stops well then I'll do it.

I'll let you know in a couple weeks how that setup goes....I suspect I'll have the same results as last time.

EDIT: Actually, you better make sure you are coming along too, I'll show you first hand why the brakes in the ma61 just don't cut it.

[RObErT_RaTh]

Stock rims are cool...but if I have to replace em with bigger ones to make sure my car stops well then I'll do it.

I'll let you know in a couple weeks how that setup goes....I suspect I'll have the same results as last time.

EDIT: Actually, you better make sure you are coming along too, I'll show you first hand why the brakes in the ma61 just don't cut it.

If you're talking about the cruise with cilleh then sure I'll come along now :P Just make sure I'm not in your car if the brakes are like what you say :D

But seriously, you've got a 7MGTE, I've got a 5ME and that GTE would still go a lot harder than a stock 2J so new rotors and pads would be right for me wouldn't it?

[ma61turbo]

:eek:

Yeah, I've got a 7m-gte, but the 2J will go almost as fast, just take a bit longer to get there. If you want to do any trackwork *at all* you need bigger brakes. Specially at Mallala, it chews up and spits out brakes for breakfast.

What it comes down to is that there just isn't enough material to absorb the heat produced from stopping a 1250-1300kg car multiple times in a row.

[RObErT_RaTh]

What it comes down to is that there just isn't enough material to absorb the heat produced from stopping a 1250-1300kg car multiple times in a row.

Cold air pvc pipe intakes for brakes? :P

[BigWorm]

Well, I guess I'll weigh in with my opinion now, even though it's going to be slightly biased as I am the vendor of said 5MGE. ;)

My 5MGE, and I'll be honest here that I only drove it for a week or so before I gave it the flick, ran very weel, had no major leaks & had a relatively clean cooling system, and I would have much greater faith in its condition over a 300,000+km 7M.

As for the conversion issue, a 7MGE swap may be not that much harder (discounting the condition of the 7M) with the right research, but it will take a decent amount of research & learning to get it all wired up, whereas the 5M is of the same age/generation and is going to have a much easier loom to adapt & get running. As said it should be a fairly unrushed weekend or two to complete, compared to 2 or 3 flatout weekends with plenty of hours during the week after work either under the car, over the engine bay or in front of the PC, trouble shooting & diagnosing problems. Then there's the fact that most 300,000+km 7Ms will most likely require the head to be shaved on top of a new HG & head bolts/studs, which means you may as well get the stem seals replaced & get valve clearances checked etc etc etc

By the sounds of it you'd like to have a go at an engine conversion to gain experience & increase your mechanical abilities, big power is not your main goal, and you have a limited timeframe & budget. The 5MGE conversion would be easy, result in less stress, & would still provide that rewarding engine conversion experience once complete. And if you're anything like me, once you've got one engine conversion under your belt your hunger for more will only build! It honestly feels wierd when all the cars at my place are running....

[RObErT_RaTh]

By the sounds of it you'd like to have a go at an engine conversion to gain experience & increase your mechanical abilities, big power is not your main goal, and you have a limited timeframe & budget.

Finally, someone that understands! :) But now after what everyone has said I'm not sure if I will go ahead with it anymore :confused:

[takai]

Heh, i reckon a few of us could probably do the entire conversion in a weekend....

Provided enough motivation.
Btw, if either you or ma61turbo decide to part with your rims im after some more MA61 stockers for Ahrensys car.

And yes, once you have done one engine conversion you just hanker for more. Ive done three of my own now, and two of other peoples, and assisted on numerous. Its really not that hard these days :D and i want to do more and more.

[Yian]

And yes, once you have done one engine conversion you just hanker for more. Ive done three of my own now, and two of other peoples, and assisted on numerous. Its really not that hard these days :D and i want to do more and more.

It's fun :D Better when it's someone else's as it's not yours that's breaking (if anything goes wrong).

Rob, MA61 stocky brakes don't really cut it on spirited driving. Coming down hillies on the GOR run, I had a brown pants moment when my foot almost hit the floor whilst pressing the brake pedal. Looking at rotors after, burnt pads smell and rotors were uber blue colour from the heat.

[CrUZida]

I would not feel comfortable doing a 2J conversion so yes it would cost me a crapload in labour :(
My god... Did you not listen to a word I said ??

Read this, and learn it
It doesn't matter whether it will be a 5MGE, 7MGE or 2JZGE conversion, EVERYTHING will be the same (in terms of conversion)

The only things that differ, is that you will need to buy bellhousing/flywheel/clutch for the 2JZ.
All motors will require exhaust mods
All motors will require some fiddling with heater hoses/radiator hoses.
All motors will bolt straight up.
All motors will require the same amount of wiring (unless you get a gen1 5MGE which uses the 5ME loom)
PowerSteering lines will bolt on to the M blocks, but with RA65 stuff it will bolt on to the JZ blocks as well, so that no more difficult.

ALL conversions are identical.
In all conversions you need to completely remove the engine/gbox.
In all conversions you need to bolt flywheel/clutch/gbox back up to new motor.
In all conversions you need to bolt the motor/gbox straight up to a set of mounts.
In all conversions you need to sort out radiator and heater hoses - this is not hard
In all conversions you need to sort out wiring. 5MGE stuff WILL NOT be easier than 2JZGE. Wiring is wiring when it comes to these simple motors
In all conversions you need to work out a different intake pipe setup
In all conversions you need to get some slight exhaust mods
The only difference I can think of is the power steering lines, but get RA65 stuff and the JZ powersteering setup becomes plug and play

So you see, its all the same.
The ONLY difference is the initial outlay cost.
The 2JZGE will own the M blocks for reliability, economy, and power.


If you want to do a basic conversion to get some skills up, I suggest getting a cheap KE30 corolla, and get a 4K-C motor, and swap that in.
Or something to that effect.

[JustCallMeOrlando]

I'm with stupid ^^^. He's spot on with that call. With suitable mounts and sump configs, all of them are bolt in, and all of that stuff is available. The JZ stuff is easy to find, but comes at a higher initial cost, same goes with the engine.

The 5ME wiring is about as primitive as Toyota stuff got, any non-early 5MGE is going to require the same amount of wiring difficulty wise as a 7MGE or 2JZGE so that's a moot point.

I've driven a MA61 with a freshly rebuilt 5MGE and one with a 2JZGE. There is no comparison. That and the motor is newer, and shits on the M for economy.

Just to re-iterate. They ARE all about the same difficulty, the JZ stuff is just going to cost more. Me personally? I'd be getting some decent suspension and saving for a 2JZ conversion.

As for brakes, new rotors and pads are good, but the MA61 brakes aren't that big at all, nor that thick. The MA61 rims aren't very conducive to ventilation also.

[RONA]

With all this torque of fuel eocnomy what are the actual figures for the guys with 2jz's in MA61's.

With the stock ecu I got 10L per 100kms on the dot, and now with the Microtech I get 13L per 100kms on a rich tune, mainly city driving and because I only drive it once a week it generally gets opened up cos it feels so good.

[JustCallMeOrlando]

I don't think you drove enough to make that call ;)

[CrUZida]

I'm pretty sure Glen said he got it down to 7L/100km on a highway run wiht his 2JZGE

[ma61turbo]

Cold air pvc pipe intakes for brakes? :P

A similar idea is in my head. PVC won't work though, need flexible hose that can turn with the wheel. But that is off-topic anyway ;)

[ma61turbo]

If you want to do a basic conversion to get some skills up, I suggest getting a cheap KE30 corolla, and get a 4K-C motor, and swap that in.
Or something to that effect.

This is exaclty what I was going to say next. Doing this will be really straight forward, and there's next to no electrical work to worry about.

I've got a KE70 Rolla that I'll sell for cheap when I no longer need it if you want to go that route ;)

[Hydra]

RObErT_RaTh, you need a reason to get better brakes, come for a spin in my car :) But only after going for a spin in ma61turbo's car... which i'm sure can still get the rotors glowing!

Considering your options, the 2jz is going to be easier in the long run. Sure the older motors are cheaper now, but the work required later on will be a killer trust me. Then again, the same can be said for any unknown motor!

[Hydra]

Plus, if you want to do a conversion in your back yard, just PM me and i'll help you do the easy mechanical stuff, and work out wiring. It's really easy.

[RONA]

I don't think you drove enough to make that call ;)
I did atleast 1,500kms on the stock ecu, and Ed returned similar figures on the stock ecu.;)

Edit: I reckon Cruz's idea of buying a shitter and thowing a 4kc in it is a great idea, great way to learn and if you blow it up who cares. Depends on how much space you have though.:)

[ma61turbo]

Plus, if you want to do a conversion in your back yard, just PM me and i'll help you do the easy mechanical stuff, and work out wiring. It's really easy.

I'll give you a hand as well if you need it.

[RObErT_RaTh]

Since no one seems to think the 5MGE or 7MGE will be worth it the 2J will be the obvious choice because it will all work out the same cost in the end (from what you guys keep telling me) and will no doubt be more powerful/fun.

But because of the initial higher cost it will be a long way off for me now and in the meantime I'm sure I will pickup some skills that might help me with the conversion later down the track.

Now, JustCallMeFrank said better to spend money on suspension now and save for 2J (which seems reasonable to me).

Hydra, your saying I need a reason for better brakes/suspension? Everyone always goes more powerful motor first and then fixes up everything else and people are always saying it would be a nice idea to get a good base to work with so you are ready when you have a more powerful setup.

[takai]

Yeah, if you are going to wait then put money into brakes and suspension as you can. Also, if you want to learn how to do an engine conversion then im sure that there are a few coming up.
Jesse has his 2J to go in, which im sure he would let you assist on, and I will probably be doing one eventually on Ahrensys KE30 which you could come assist for. That way you could come and learn without a lot of the heartache of being without a car.

[RObErT_RaTh]

I wouldn't mind watching and learning a thing or two. Would definately be a lot easier than reading 100's of posts :P

[PlacentaJuan]

mate come over any time you want to check out the 2j conversion, i have 6 days off and am just waitinf for some more parts to arrive so i can hammer it again.

give me a call if your interested; 0419230091

i got to admit, even though i am a n00b, having toymods and joel pretty much on hand to advise me is a big help, and the conversion isnt really that hard, altohugh the worst is yet to come....

[Hydra]

Honestly, you'll learn more by doing than watching! :)

I'm still throwing around the idea of a 1uz or 1/2jz-gte in my car... but thats probably still months away.

[BlackSupra]

I'm pretty sure Glen said he got it down to 7L/100km on a highway run wiht his 2JZGE

Nah, only 8L/100km to brisbane.

[RObErT_RaTh]

PlacentaJuan, I might have to take you up on the offer if I get some free time. But I work full time and I have two 21st parties this weekend, it's never ending :(

[PlacentaJuan]

shift work ftw

[Norbie]

I like the look of the stock rims and if I will get a noticeable difference from ebc pads and slotted rotors then I don't see why I would change them. I think the current calipers are going to be enough for the 5ME at the moment.
Much as I like the stock rims, 14" simply doesn't cut it for two reasons:
1. You can't get big enough brakes behind them.
2. Wobbly 60-series tyres are no good for cornering, not to mention your choice of tyres is seriously limited these days.

Upgrade to 16's or 17's if you're serious about cornering and braking. It's one of those compromises that just needs to be made.

[takai]

Much as I like the stock rims, 14" simply doesn't cut it for two reasons:
1. You can't get big enough brakes behind them.
2. Wobbly 60-series tyres are no good for cornering, not to mention your choice of tyres is seriously limited these days.

Upgrade to 16's or 17's if you're serious about cornering and braking. It's one of those compromises that just needs to be made.

Hilux/Pug conversion fit under 14s, and A048s are in 60 profile.

Nevertheless, its not ideal. But its what we are restricted to.

[Norbie]

Hilux/Pug conversion fit under 14s,
Not what I'd call "big enough". :)

[RONA]

Not what I'd call "big enough". :)
R32 stuff as a minimum IMO and you can pick the stuff up so cheap these days its not that bad. IMO theres no point skimping on a brake package.

[takai]

Not what I'd call "big enough". :)

True, my car is 400kg lighter.

[RObErT_RaTh]

R32 stuff as a minimum IMO and you can pick the stuff up so cheap these days its not that bad. IMO theres no point skimping on a brake package.

And I suppose it is a nice way to justify getting new rims, but I do like the stock ones on most days. I like the fact that my car attracts zero attention from ze coppers.

[RONA]

And I suppose it is a nice way to justify getting new rims, but I do like the stock ones on most days. I like the fact that my car attracts zero attention from ze coppers.
mx73 cressida rims clear the R32 brakes as found by Cruzida;)

[BlackSupra]

Im also going to say, with all the parts in your garage, you COULD do a 2JZGE conversion in a weekend. But thats going to be lots of work and not much fartassing about.

The other thing i liked about my 2J conversion when i threw it in. It was so fresh i only changed the oil and filter and threw it in. Didn't even touch the spark plugs. No oil leaks and it was super clean motor inside and out. (had sump off)

[CrUZida]

Im also going to say, with all the parts in your garage, you COULD do a 2JZGE conversion in a weekend.
Tuesday :P

[BlackSupra]

Tuesday :P

oh definetly tuesday!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Norbie]

And I suppose it is a nice way to justify getting new rims, but I do like the stock ones on most days. I like the fact that my car attracts zero attention from ze coppers.
Interestingly, mine attracts zero attention as well. 17" rims don't stand out much these days, and the rest of the car is visually stock. The cops don't even bat an eyelid; even when I've been pulled over (for unrelated reasons :p ), they never want to look at the car.

[Yian]

Yeah. Same here. They search the car 'cause I'm asian... you know, for samurai swords and drugs and shit. :rolleyes: But the car? They don't even look at it.

[RObErT_RaTh]

It's different in SA, anyone with rims seems to be a target

[Yian]

Haha... if you ever come down to Vic, you'll see how bad the coppers can be here. Reckon it all comes down to how you drive and how you look? I just look like a geek, which kinda helps.

[takai]

It's different in SA, anyone with rims seems to be a target

I havnt been hassled at all, big rims, red brakes.... im even asian in appearance.

[BigWorm]

Pffft, Cressidas don't count. ;)
I nailed it off the lights a few weeks ago in the Cressida, with a little bit of wheelspin, and the nearby cops promptly pulled over the silvia behind me! :D

[RObErT_RaTh]

Ahahha nice work Joel, I thought the number plate woulda made them look?

[haison]

Yeah. Same here. They search the car 'cause I'm asian... you know, for samurai swords and drugs and shit. :rolleyes: But the car? They don't even look at it.

Even with the guages n whatnot?

[Javal]

Question. how ghetto do you want to go with this conversion?

Here's a crazy idea for you.

On a recent trip to U-pull-it (lonsdale), saw a few cressys with 5M-GE's sitting in the bay. Pick one of them up for bugger all, Rebuild it (get a mate with some mechanical smarts to help you if you don't feel confident, an cause it's a u pull it motor, it'll probably need a bit of machine work done to it) then.... this is where it gets filthy.....

J-pipe turbo. :eek:

2nd hand T28 / T25 of some dirty nissan will do the job.

And that's pretty much it.

Pros: it's cheapish. it's simpleish. it's very, very DIY.

Cons: Some people would consider you a retard.

Javal.

FIRST POST :D

[RObErT_RaTh]

It's a nice idea but I've gone the way of the 5MTE hybrid. Turbo and gear has been ordered through some very helpful gents on the forums (thanks guys ;)) and I will post pics when it's complete and running ;)

Cons: Some people would consider you a retard.

This is quadrupled by going the way of the 5MTE so I think I've nailed this one on the head

[wilbo666]

Pffft, Cressidas don't count. ;)
I nailed it off the lights a few weeks ago in the Cressida, with a little bit of wheelspin, and the nearby cops promptly pulled over the silvia behind me! :D

I've often said that you could drop a skid in front of the cops in a cressida and they wouldn't notice ;)

Yay to Joel for proving it!

Cheers
Wilbo

[BigWorm]

Lol, in fact, I did an even better job last night. I was sitting at a set of lights, and noticed a few cars coming up behind me. The one that stood out was a series 6 RX7 coming up on my left, so I got ready to give it a bootfull. The lights went green, just as another car was coming past on the right, so I nailed it, & with my dodgy tyres the rears just light up & the ass steps out a bit with squeel from the tyres, then I notice that the car on my right was a police station wagon!!! :eek:
I didn't actually pass them as they got the jump on me at the lights and I backed off, and obviously the RX7 didn't try to run, but I don't think they knew what the hell happened, they certainly didn't suspect it was the cressy! :cool: I trundled along behind them for a little while then bailed off at the first side street. I was in hysterics after that though! :D

[RObErT_RaTh]

Ahahahhaha you classic mate, damn sleeper power!

[Javal]

The one that stood out was a series 6 RX7 coming up on my left

Hahaahahah would this happen to be 'LAYLOW'? black FD, gold accents, 16"bling stars, big sparco sticker across the windscreen? (for the reference, it's the most hideous RX7 i've ever seen, including some absolute boonger S I - S III's i've seen)

If so, she DESERVES to get pulled over. absolutley, blatantly dangerous and terrible driver. i find it funny, she has a sparco sticker on her car, but even if she removed everything bar a sparco bucket, the car would still weigh more than standard once she got in....LOLOLOLOL

Yeah, i've had run ins with her before, incase you havent picked it up lol. Good luck with the conversion, although you shouldn't need it, it should be fairly simple.

Javal.

[BigWorm]

No it wasn't, it had NVMYRE plates, and featured fully hectic gull wing doors. I somehow found myself on a cruising SA cruise tonight (shhhh, please don't spread that around! :o) and this very same RX7 came along.
I think if he could he would have had both his fully hectic gullwings open while driving, every time it stopped they were up & open for all to see. Apart from being choked by his exhaust smoke for one long single lane stretch, I had a chance to line him up at one set of lights. The only thing I can say is, what's the point of having any power if you can't put it down? :confused:
1JZCYA strikes again. :rolleyes:

EDIT: sorry for the slight topic derailment....

[ViPeR_NiPPleX]

omg Joel's a girl who goes on cruises lol :P

which turbo have you gotten mr RaTh? I hope its hektik enuff for teh 5me.

[RObErT_RaTh]

which turbo have you gotten mr RaTh? I hope its hektik enuff for teh 5me.

It's a T3 from an MZ10 soarer. It's more than capable of killing the 5ME, I'm not after big power but just a bit more. If I get greedy it will most likely kill the motor so I'm going to try and keep it safe.

BigWorm, ahaah I've seen that envymyre BS before! I know exactly the one you're on about ;)